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Need formula re time required to dissolve gas into liquid

Need formula re time required to dissolve gas into liquid - Physics Forum

Need formula re time required to dissolve gas into liquid - Physics Forum. Discuss and ask physics questions, kinematics and other physics problems.


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  #1  
Old 09-14-2008, 07:53 PM
Bill Velek
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Default Need formula re time required to dissolve gas into liquid



Hello; I'm new here and this is my first post. I think I've done all
that I can do before posting this: I've spend a lot of time searching
for the answer myself seaching archives in other physics forums, and
through Google, Google-Groups (specifically searching both sci.physics
and alt.sci.physics) with this search:
containing all the words: formula gas liquid dissol* pressure temp*
containing the specific phrase: surface area
.... and I've not been able to find an answer, so I hope someone here
will be kind enough to help.

I'm looking for a formula (and/or graphs or charts) to enable me to
predict how much time it will take for a certain level of gas to
dissolve into a soluable liquid based on the following variables:
1. Time
2. Pressure
3. Partial Pressure
4. Volume of Liquid (and of gas, if necessary)
5. Surface Area of liquid exposed to pressurized gas
6. Specific Gravity (if that makes a difference)

Now, my specific concern is to determine how long to apply pressurized
CO2 to 'force-carbonate' beer in a brewpub or microbrewery we are
considering. I have charts which tell me, for example, that to reach my
target carbonation level of 2.5 volumes (atmospheres) of CO2 at 32F,
then I need 8.2 psi pressure, but they don't explain how long it will
take. I know that carbonation will occur quicker with increased
pressure, and that surface area where gas and liquid are in contact is a
factor, too. I would like a formula that could tell me, for instance,
how long it would take to reach 2.5 volumes if I apply 30 psi at
32degreesF in a 10 barrel tank (310 gallons) with a surface area of
1,018 square inches; I don't want to pass my target volumes by very much
because then I would need to spend more time outgassing to get the level
back down, wasting CO2 in the process.

Thanks for any help anyone can provide.

Cheers.

Bill Velek
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  #2  
Old 09-14-2008, 08:01 PM
Spaceman
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Default Need formula re time required to dissolve gas into liquid

Bill Velek wrote:

Hi Bill,
This place might be able to help you.
There is even a phone number if you have more questions than info
given.
[Only registered users see links. ]

Hope that helps ya.


--
James M Driscoll Jr
Creator of the Clock Malfunction Theory
Spaceman




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  #3  
Old 09-14-2008, 08:58 PM
Androcles
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Default Need formula re time required to dissolve gas into liquid


"Bill Velek" <[Only registered users see links. ]> wrote in message
news:[Only registered users see links. ]...

Clearly you have a great deal of data at your disposal as well as
experience.
Since you are engaged in a commercial enterprise then as an engineer
I would recommend the trusty, true and well-proven method of
"trial-and-error" rather than any computations this group can provide,
you will only be plagued by questions and vitriol anyway.
Should you require a consultant in performing the necessary
procedures then I'm sure one can be found for suitable remuneration.




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  #4  
Old 09-15-2008, 02:12 AM
N:dlzc D:aol T:com \(dlzc\)
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Default Need formula re time required to dissolve gas into liquid

Dear Bill Velek:

"Bill Velek" <[Only registered users see links. ]> wrote in message
news:[Only registered users see links. ]...
....

Be better to ask on sci.chem.

Your interests will be best suited to studying "Henry's law", and
talking to the folks that carbonate sugar water... namely soda
pop. Putting CO2 into solution releases heat, so you will have
to cool it (search "carbo-coolers").

So you want to make a beer that actually explodes...

David A. Smith


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  #5  
Old 09-15-2008, 09:51 AM
tadchem
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Default Need formula re time required to dissolve gas into liquid

On Sep 14, 3:53*pm, Bill Velek <[Only registered users see links. ]> wrote:

You've gotten some good advice here. Androcles nailed it.

The process of dissolving one material in another involves many
variables: temperatures, pressures, contact area, mixing, and often
the presence of chemical "third parties". Some of these are easily
managed in the lab, on the bench, or on the production floor, but
others are very hard to reproduce.

Your best bet is to design some experiments to run on a pilot-plant
scale to measure the empirical relation of the results to parameters
which you can control. Some variables (mixing efficiency) will be
harder to control than others (pressure vs time, temperature vs time,
contact time, contact area) and others may not be adjustable at all
(pH, composition of liquid).

Decide what you can control and design a protocol that starts from an
arbitrary baseline (something you feel will be good) and then vary one
variable at a time. Once you have collected and analyzed all the data
it will point you in the direction of an optimum collection of
values. Simplex algorithms work well in these circumstances.

Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA
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  #6  
Old 09-15-2008, 03:26 PM
Bill Velek
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Default Need formula re time required to dissolve gas into liquid

N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) wrote:


Thanks for the suggestion; I've just posted it there.


Current plans are to condition (age) the beer after fermentation is
finished, then pasteurize and filter, then crash chill to near freezing
temp for carbonation. The beer will be maintained at approx. 32F until
packaged in either bottles or cans.


??? 2.5 volumes of CO2 is fairly typical for beer, and if anything, it
_could_ be considered _slightly_ on the low end for a carbonation level
prior to packaging, since packaging will probably cause a drop of about
..15 to .2 volumes while processing ... at least that's what I've read.

Cheers.

Bill Velek -- portal to my "HOMEBREWING" sites: [Only registered users see links. ]
My other sites: [Only registered users see links. ] ~ [Only registered users see links. ] ~ [Only registered users see links. ]
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  #7  
Old 09-15-2008, 03:39 PM
Bill Velek
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Default Need formula re time required to dissolve gas into liquid

tadchem wrote:

snip


Thanks, Dave. Yes, trial and error will be used to refine the process
to eventually achieve the _exact_ carbonation level that is desired.
However, I am working up a feasibility study and business plan first,
before we purchase equipment and have anything to experiment with, so I
had hoped to be able to make some calculations, even if they are
somewhat rough, to make a fair assessment of production time versus CO2
costs (as just one example).

Having a good idea of the amount of CO2 we will use will help us make
choices such as whether to naturally carbonate at the expense of needing
additional settling time for yeast to flocculate, versus using CO2
reclamation equipment, versus just buying bulk CO2 by the ton and not
bothering to reclaim it (not good for the environment, but that's what
just about all microbreweries do).

Thanks for your feedback.

Bill Velek
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