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Controlled hydrogen fusion quesitons

Controlled hydrogen fusion quesitons - Physics Forum

Controlled hydrogen fusion quesitons - Physics Forum. Discuss and ask physics questions, kinematics and other physics problems.


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  #1  
Old 07-28-2008, 06:30 PM
Antares 531
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Default Controlled hydrogen fusion quesitons



I don't have the resources for testing this set of ideas. I would like
some straight-forward opinions as to the probability that this might
work, or why it could not be expected to work.

I'm talking about producing controlled, cold hydrogen fusion by means
of a high frequency electric field within a rarified hydrogen gas
environment. The frequency of this field should be adjusted to match
the resonant frequency of the hydrogen ions/plasma described below.

The setup I am thinking of consists of a round plastic tube, about 2
inches in inside diameter and several inches long. This tube is to
have holes drilled along opposite sides, along two lines that are
parallel to the tube's axis. These holes are 2 inches apart, and each
hole is oriented on a radius from the center of the tube. The holes on
one side do not align with those on the other side of the tube. They
are located on the odd numbered inch marks along one side and on the
even numbered inch marks on the opposite side.

These holes each have a sharp, pointed, non-reactive metallic pin
(probably stainless steel) inserted and sealed in place such that the
pointed tips of the pins reach to the tube's axis. This results in a
row of pointed pin tips along the tube's axis, with alternate pins,one
inch apart, coming in from opposite sides of the tube.

One end of this tube/electrode array is connected to the hydrogen
source (electrolysis setup) via a small controllable orifice. The
other end of the tube is connected to a vacuum pump. The intent is to
control the hydrogen gas pressure within the tube, and also to purge
anything other than hydrogen gas from the tube during the start-up
process.

Next, with the tube filled with rarified, pure hydrogen gas and the
electrode arrays connected to an alternating high voltage power
source, will some of the hydrogen gas molecules be ionized into a
plasma, with the + hydrogen ions being drawn to the tips of the - pins
and repelled from the tips of the + pins? If so, will any of the
hydrogen ion pairs acquire sufficient velocity to cause a fusion to
occur as two ions coming from opposite directions along the tube's
axis reach the vicinity of the pin. I realize that some hydrogen ions
will actually collide with the pins and have their ion charge
neutralized, but some should experience a "near miss" with the charged
pins and end up colliding at a very high velocity, hydrogen ion
against hydrogen ion.

Can this possibly result in a controlled, cold hydrogen fusion process
from time to time?

Gordon

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  #2  
Old 07-28-2008, 06:54 PM
Lars Kecke
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Default Controlled hydrogen fusion quesitons

Antares 531 schrieb:

you'll probably need a lot more field than you can put in with a
ransformer. More like this: [Only registered users see links. ]

Lars
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  #3  
Old 07-28-2008, 06:56 PM
dlzc
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Default Controlled hydrogen fusion quesitons

Dear Antares 531:

On Jul 28, 11:30*am, Antares 531 <[Only registered users see links. ]> wrote:

1) unless you start with tritium or deuterium, then you need a
"miraculous" collision of three or more hydrogen atoms, and conversion
of some of those protons into neutrons.
2) You need to overcome the electrostatic repulsion of some very
strong positive charges. You'd need several thousands of volts if not
millions of volts.

And it would NOT be cold.


Plastic would melt.


Why bother with this geometry? Evacuated tubes have been filled with
various noble gases at evacutated pressures to generate the
characteristic spectra of those gases. And sufficient voltages and
frequencies to elicit all the transistions up to and including full
ionization. No fusion resulted.

...

No more than would naturally occur in a compressed hydrogen cylinder
without all the frou-frou. You either need a thermal neutron source,
or high temperautres. Nature keeps you alive because there is a non-
trivial barrier to fusion and most fission as well.

David A. Smith
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  #4  
Old 07-28-2008, 10:12 PM
Paul Hovnanian P.E.
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Default Controlled hydrogen fusion quesitons

Antares 531 wrote:

When you have high enough temperatures for ions, you are well beyond
'cold' fusion. When the ions have enough energy for fusion, enclosing
the plasma within a plastic tube (or any other material) is out of the
question.

Enclosing the plasma within a magnetic field might work. That's what the
people building things like the Tokamak
[Only registered users see links. ] and similar devices have been
working on.

--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:[Only registered users see links. ]
------------------------------------------------------------------
The large print giveth and the small print taketh away.
-- Tom Waits
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  #5  
Old 07-30-2008, 12:22 AM
Antares 531
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Default Controlled hydrogen fusion quesitons

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 13:30:54 -0500, Antares 531
<[Only registered users see links. ]> wrote:

Okay, it's time for me to set this one aside and get back to the
kitchen to help my wife with the dishes. ;-)

I was trying to do a thought experiment involving either a plasma or
high voltage corona that would impart sufficient momentum to some
hydrogen ions to cause fusion to occur.

If the hydrogen gas pressure was very low, would the plasma or corona
involve enough heat to be a problem with a plastic or maybe a ceramic
tube?

Heat is the average kinetic energy of the atoms involved. If there
were only a very few hydrogen ions involved, would this not be largely
confined in the path between the adjacent charged needles?

Of course a proton - neutron interaction to produce heavy hydrogen
would be the easiest way to go, except neutrons won't respond to this
kind of electrostatic field.

Gordon
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  #6  
Old 07-30-2008, 12:35 AM
N:dlzc D:aol T:com \(dlzc\)
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Default Controlled hydrogen fusion quesitons

Dear Antares 531:

"Antares 531" <[Only registered users see links. ]> wrote in message
news:[Only registered users see links. ]...
....

You can have a low temperaure plasma like in a fluorescent light
tube, that is on the order of 6000K, but the envelope is
typically 40-60 degC.


You are talking the order of 25 millon K. So yes, it would be a
problem for any material since it would propagate right through
the tube.


No.


Right. But thermal neutron sources can be had...

David A. Smith


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  #7  
Old 07-30-2008, 09:30 PM
ESKI
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Default Controlled hydrogen fusion quesitons

On Jul 28, 1:30*pm, Antares 531 <[Only registered users see links. ]> wrote:

Interesting idea. What so many experimenters forget is that in a
rarified ion gas of this sort the ions involved would most likely be
the H:H molecular cation and electrons. But that only makes things
more interesting as the molecular ion on collision could fuse to the D
+ ion. Good luck! Dean Sinclair
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  #8  
Old 07-30-2008, 10:32 PM
Antares 531
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Default Controlled hydrogen fusion quesitons

On Wed, 30 Jul 2008 14:30:00 -0700 (PDT), ESKI
<[Only registered users see links. ]> wrote:

Dean, I'm still dealing with this as a thought experiment. I don't
have enough confidence in the set of ideas to invest much time or
resources, yet. Let's just say, "My faith is still a bit weak!"

My current contemplations lead me to think the linear array of
alternately charged electrode needles in a very rarified hydrogen gas,
would tend to pull the polarized hydrogen molecules into the following
positions.

The negative needles would attract the positive end (proton end) of
the polarized hydrogen molecules, and would build up a cluster (Stern
layer) of these hydrogen atoms, complete with their electron, one
layer thick on the surface of the negative needles.

The positive needles would, similarly, pull the negative end (electron
end) of the hydrogen atoms into contact, but at the moment of contact
each hydrogen atom would lose its electron, leaving only a proton.
Then, the proton, being repelled by the positive electrostatic force
from the positive needle, would be thrust away, following the
electrostatic field toward nearest negative charge zone. This negative
charge zone would be the electron end of the polarized hydrogen atoms
(Stern layer) that form the cluster around the negative needles. If
there happened to be enough time, distance and field intensity for the
proton's velocity (momentum) to build up sufficiently, would some of
these run-away protons (ionized hydrogen nuclei) possibly collide with
those captive hydrogen atoms with enough momentum to breach the
coulomb barrier?

Gordon
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  #9  
Old 08-07-2008, 01:35 PM
Antares 531
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Default Controlled hydrogen fusion quesitons

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 13:30:54 -0500, Antares 531
<[Only registered users see links. ]> wrote:

Would the success or failure of this process be determined by the
needle/electrode spacing, needle charge voltage and hydrogen gas
density? I'm inclined to think there might be some very critical
"geometry" involved here, and if the conditions aren't just right the
protons (hydrogen nuclei) will simply swap electrons with the hydrogen
atoms that haven't yet had their electron removed. That is, there
would be a flow of electrons from the region around the negative
needles toward the positive needles, with those electrons jumping form
hydrogen atom to hydrogen atom along the way.

If the hydrogen gas density and electrode spacings were set just right
some of these protons, however, might make it all the way from the
positive electrodes to the nearest negative electrode, then, because
of a mutual repulsion between these approaching protons, some would
miss the target (negative needle) and collide with each other at a
very high momentum. Could this type proton collision ever result in a
fusion?

Gordon
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  #10  
Old 08-08-2008, 12:04 AM
N:dlzc D:aol T:com \(dlzc\)
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Default Controlled hydrogen fusion quesitons

Dear Antares 531:

"Antares 531" <[Only registered users see links. ]> wrote in message
news:[Only registered users see links. ]...
....

Over and over again, NO!

The applied voltage would have to hundreds of thousands if not
tens of millions of volts. The equivalent temperature of the
core of the Sun.

It is not spacing, or monkey manipulation. It is energy to
covercome the coulombic barrier that allows you to live in this
Universe. A Universe where a non-trivial amount of energy
applied does not fuse nucleii to iron.

David A. Smith


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