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Proposition for performing a series of electromagnetic experiments

Proposition for performing a series of electromagnetic experiments - Physics Forum

Proposition for performing a series of electromagnetic experiments - Physics Forum. Discuss and ask physics questions, kinematics and other physics problems.


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  #1  
Old 09-05-2007, 05:41 AM
Hamid.V.Ansari@gmail.com
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Default Proposition for performing a series of electromagnetic experiments



Hi all,

Choose two parallel wires. We know if these wires carry parallel
currents
they attract each other, and if they carry antiparallel currents they
repel
each other. Existence of this attraction or repulsion doesn't concern
the
medium of experiment, ie if the experiment is performed in air,
nitrogen,
natural gas, water, vacuum or other mediums yet this attraction or
repulsion
exists. Will the magnitude of this attraction or repulsion increase if
this
experiment is performed in a ferrofluid? It seems that this will be
the case,
because the magnetic field arising from the current in a wire at the
place of
the other wire polarizes ferromagnetic tiny particles of the
ferrofluid near
around this other wire and gives order to them in such a manner that
the
magnetic field at the place of this other wire will be strengthened
(like
when the existence of a ferromagnet core in a solenoid strengthens the
magnetic field arising from the current in the solenoid), so, the
force
exerted on the current in this strengthened magnetic field will be
more.
This experiment doesn't seem to be performed so far and neither have I
possibility to perform it presently. My FIRST PROPOSITION is that if
you
have access to necessary experimental facilities perform this
experiment
to see whether or not the mentioned attraction or repulsion will be
strengthened in a ferrofluid medium.

Now, consider two current-carrying parallel wires in the air or in a
vacuum. Measure the force that these two wires exert on each other
when specified currents flow through these wires. Now without any
change in the conditions of experiment (esp current intensity) other
than the kind of the wires change their kind into a soft ferromagnetic
material (like iron). In this state each wire positioning in the
magnetic field arising from the current in the other wire will
become itself polarized and oriented laterally in such a manner
that will strengthen the magnetic field arisinmg from the current
in the other wire near around itself. But this strengthened magnetic
field cannot cause increase in the force exerted on the wire if
the medium surrounding the wire lacks (inductive) magnetic dipoles
(as we cannot say that there is a net force exerted on a (point)
charge due to the placing of that charge in the field arising
from itself). But if the (soft) ferromagnetic wires are placed
in a ferrofluid, ferromagnetic particles of the ferrofluid will
become more polarized and more oriented in this strengthened field
and then the magnetic field in the place of the wire will be
strengthened due to this more polarization and orientation of the
particles, and so, the force exerted on the current-carrying
wire in this field will increase. SECOND PROPOSITION is that
firstly measure the force exerted on some non-magnetic current-
carrying parallel wires placed in ferrofluid and secondly
through the sole alteration in the conditions of the experiment
change the kind of the wires into a soft ferromagnetic material
and measure the force exerted on the wires and compare it with
the previous one. Do this experiment and let us know the
result for proper analyzing.

THIRD PROPOSITION is performing just this experiment in the air
or in a vacuum, ie in a medium lacking (inductive) magnetic
dipoles measure the force between two parallel current-carrying
non-magnetic wires and then only change the kind of the wires
into a soft ferromagnetic material and measure again this force
and compare it with the previous one. Accoding to what expressed
before, the force is not expected to increase by changing the
kind of wires, but do this experiment with much more
carefulness and let's know the result since probably after
changing the kind of wires into a soft ferromagnetic material
the force between them will increase (even though through a
very small increment). If this will be the case and you will
report the details of your experiment, you will share in the
theory proposing this experiment.

Now laterally magnetize a wire of a hard ferromagnetic kind
in a so powerful magnetic field permanently. Situate this
magnetized wire in a ferrofluid in a straight position.
Theoretically the magnetic field of the magnetized wire
will polarize and orient the ferromagnetic particles of
the ferrofluid around the wire in such a manner that the
wire will be in the lateral magnetic field of them. Now,
if we pass a direct electric current through this wire
it will be expected that there will be a force exerted on
this current-carrying wire being placed in the above-
mentioned magnetic field (due to the oriented ambient
inductive magnetic dipoles of the ferromagnetic particles
of the ferrofluid). FOURTH PROPOSITION is performing
this experiment and observing that whether or not really
there will be force exerted on this curren-carrying
(laterally) magnetized wire in a ferrofluid. Perform it
and report its result and details for analyzing.

As the FIFTH PROPOSITION perform this same experiment
(subject of the fourth proposition) in a medium having
no (inductive) magnetic dipoles (effectively), eg a
vacuum or the air, without any other alterations to
the conditions of the experiment (esp that the wire
must be permanently magnetized). According to the same
reasoning that a charge doesn't exert any net force
on itself it is not expected that any force will be
exerted on this current-carring wire (in vacuum),
but perform this experiment with much more
carefulness since it is probable that in this state too
there will be a force (even though weak) exerted on the
(magnetized) wire after passing of current through it.
If this will be the case and you will report the
details of your experiment you will share in the theory
proposing this experiment.

See below for the SIXTH PROPOSITION:

Take an opaque hollow insulator cylinder (ie a thick tube).
Make a vertical small hole in the body of this cylinder at
one (and only one) point between the two circular bases of
it. Choose another short rigid tube and fix and fit and
seal one of its bases in the above-mentioned hole. In this
manner you will have a T-shaped complex of two communicating
tubes from which the narrow tube is normal to the middle of
the thick tube. Coil an insulated wire round the thick
cylinder (or tube) equally balanced at two sides of the
narrow perpendicular tube. Free end of the narrow tube must
be out of the coil. Give a (strong) direct electric current
to the coil and suppose that some imaginary entities are
being shooted through this narrow tube outwards while we
are giving current to the coil. Consider the trajectory of
these shooted imaginary entities along and in the continuation
of the narrow tube which we call it here, when we are giving
current to the coil, as the "line of experiment".

If you have access to experimental facilities for determining
or comparing light velocities in different directions or
mediums directly (eg by using Michelson-Morley experiment in
Michelson interferometer) or indirectly (eg by study on
effects of alteration of index of refraction on a beam of
light), please perform necessary experiments to see if the
velocity of light in the (above-mentioned) line of experiment
differs from one in a direction normal to this line. Please
let me know the result of your experiment. If it differs
and you report the details of your experiment you'll have
a share in the important theory proposing this experiment.


We know that there exists a force exerted on a current-
carrying wire in the space between the two flat poles of
a U-shaped magnet when it is normal to the lines of magnetic
field. Suppose that this force is outwards. As a high school
experiment suggests let's rest this magnet on a sensitive
balance. In this state the above-mentioned wire in the space
between the magnet poles will be horizontal and we hold it
to keep its horizontal state. Now if the same current with
the same direction passes through the wire, still the same
outward force, which in this state is also upwards, will be
exerted on the wire. However we observe that the sensitive
balance indicates an additional downward force exerted on itself.
This additional force is the reaction force of the (action)
force exerted on the wire which is being exerted on the magnet.

Exertion of action and reaction forces is also observable in
the following experiment: Take two strips which are laterally
permanently magnetized. Hang them from above beside each other
in such a manner that there exists a narrow gap between them
and near edges of the two (laterally) magnetized strips are
opposite poles of them. Hang an insulated wire in the above-
mentioned gap and pass an intense direct current through it.
So, the strips are forced in a direction (normal to the
surface of the strips) and the wire is forced in the opposite
direction. These drivings of the wire and strips will be
reversed when the direction of the current is reversed.
Clearly this experiment is a result of the action-reaction
law.

Now in the recent experiment suppose that the covering of
the insulated wire has been stuck to the above-mentioned
near edges of the two strips such that the strips and the
wire form a rigid set of clung three things. Let's repeat the
experiment in this state. The force exerted on the wire
and the force exerted on the strips will cancel each other
and no net force will be exerted on this set. (In other
words if we have a wire of a hard ferromagnetic material
and we permanently magnetize it laterally in a powerful
magnetic field and then hang it in a space free from any
external magnetic field and pass a direct current through
it, we shouldn't expect any net force exerted on the wire
although the wire is a (lateral) magnet. (This is the
subject of the fifth proposition.)) But it seems that this
is not quite the case, and when the current is passing
through the wire there is a force (even though weak) exerted
on the set in the same direction which was exerted on the
wire before sticking it to the strips. Perform this
experiment in a medium considered as one lacking magnetic
dipoles as an alternative repeat of the fifth proposition.
If you can show the existence of such a force exerted on
the above-mentioned set, report the details of your
experiment and share in the theory presenting this
experiment.

SEVENTH PROPOSITION:
In the recent experiment (ie the alternative repeat of the
fifth proposition) use the inside space of a current-
carrying coreless solenoid instead of the magnetic strips.
Namely, pass an insulated straight wire laterally through
a sufficiently big coreless solenoid and fasten the wire
and solenoid together. Now hang the wire vertically while
the solenoid, which is normal to the wire, remains stuck
to the wire. A direct current passes through the solenoid
and then the magnetic field inside the solenoid is constant
and normal to the wire. Now let an intense direct current
pass through the wire. If the situation is similar to the
experiment proposed in the alternative repeat of the fifth
proposition, no net force will be expected to be exerted
practically on the clung set of the wire and solenoid;
but perform this experiment and if you observe some
noticeable net force exerted on this set in the same direction
of the force exerted on the straight wire in the inside field
of the solenoid, report the details of your experiment and
share in the theory proposing this experiment.

As an alternative repeat of the experiment of the seventh
proposition, instead of being fastened together let the
solenoid rest along its length on a sensitive balance and
the straight wire pass laterally through the solenoid in
the middle of its length while having no touch with the
solenoid. Keep holding this wire horizontally. Suppose that
when direct currents are passing through the solenoid and
wire, the wire is being forced upwards. If the situation is
similar to what said about a free wire between two free
laterally magnetized strips we should expect reaction of the
upward action force exerted on the wire to be a downward
force exerted on the solenoid causing the balance to indicate
noticeably the additional force exerted on it. But probably
practically this won't be the case. Perform this experiment
and in the case of confirmation of this probability report
the details of your experiment and share in the theory
proposing this experiment.

EIGHTH PROPOSITION:
Two current-carrying parallel wires, in the air or in a vacuum,
exert force on each other. The magnitude of the force exerted by
the first wire on the second wire is theoretically and
experimentally equal to the force exerted by the second wire on
the first wire, and this is in accordance with the action-reaction
law. Now let one of these two parallel wires be in a ferrofluid
and the other one be in the air or a vacuum. In this state when
the same currents flow in the wires, the forces exerted on the
wires will be expected to be in the same directions as before,
but will the magnitudes of these forces be equal to each other?
Perform this experiment and compare the forces exerted on the
wires with each other. Probably the force exerted on the wire
in the ferrofluid will be more than the force exerted on the
other wire. If so, what can be said about the action-reaction
law in this respect? Perform the experiment carefully and report
the result for analysis.


QUESTION:

Are there physical laboratories to perform ordered (proposed)
experiments charging for their performance? If so, please
let me know how I can contact them.


Best regards,
Hamid V. Ansari

hvansari at gmail.com

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  #2  
Old 09-05-2007, 08:55 AM
nottoooily@hotmail.com
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Posts: n/a
Default Proposition for performing a series of electromagnetic experiments

You should be able to simulate these experiments with the free Maxwell
2D software here:

[Only registered users see links. ]

I've used it to model forces between permanent magnets, and AC effects
in coils, so I think it'll have no trouble with DC currents and the
fields they produce.



On Sep 5, 5:41 pm, [Only registered users see links. ] wrote:


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  #3  
Old 09-05-2007, 08:55 AM
nottoooily@hotmail.com
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Proposition for performing a series of electromagnetic experiments

You should be able to simulate these experiments with the free Maxwell
2D software here:

[Only registered users see links. ]

I've used it to model forces between permanent magnets, and AC effects
in coils, so I think it'll have no trouble with DC currents and the
fields they produce.



On Sep 5, 5:41 pm, [Only registered users see links. ] wrote:


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  #4  
Old 09-05-2007, 10:18 PM
Don Kelly
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Posts: n/a
Default Proposition for performing a series of electromagnetic experiments

----------------------------
<[Only registered users see links. ]> wrote in message
news:1188970892.116475.12120@r29g2000hsg.googlegro ups.com...
---------snip----------
To start consider your first proposition- look at the equation for the
force between the conductors and the role of permeability in this equation.
If you increase permeability by using a "bath" of ferrofluids then the
effect is obvious.

For your second proposition- the use of magnetic conductors will have a
miniscule effect. Note that it is the integral of H around a closed loop
that is related to the ampere turns enclosed. Even if the conductor had
infinite permeability, it is only a very small part of the magnetic path of
concern. Local distortion of the field may occur which might have a small
effect.

As for the rest??????? It appears that you are trying to re-invent the wheel
by putting corners on it.

--

Don Kelly [Only registered users see links. ]
remove the X to answer




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  #5  
Old 09-05-2007, 10:18 PM
Don Kelly
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Posts: n/a
Default Proposition for performing a series of electromagnetic experiments

----------------------------
<[Only registered users see links. ]> wrote in message
news:1188970892.116475.12120@r29g2000hsg.googlegro ups.com...
---------snip----------
To start consider your first proposition- look at the equation for the
force between the conductors and the role of permeability in this equation.
If you increase permeability by using a "bath" of ferrofluids then the
effect is obvious.

For your second proposition- the use of magnetic conductors will have a
miniscule effect. Note that it is the integral of H around a closed loop
that is related to the ampere turns enclosed. Even if the conductor had
infinite permeability, it is only a very small part of the magnetic path of
concern. Local distortion of the field may occur which might have a small
effect.

As for the rest??????? It appears that you are trying to re-invent the wheel
by putting corners on it.

--

Don Kelly [Only registered users see links. ]
remove the X to answer




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  #6  
Old 09-06-2007, 06:17 AM
Hamid.V.Ansari@gmail.com
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Proposition for performing a series of electromagnetic experiments

On Sep 6, 2:18 am, "Don Kelly" <[Only registered users see links. ]> wrote:
To start consider your first proposition- look at the equation for
the
Presently only existence of the effect of the magnetic conductor is
important
and that it becomes experimentaly proven. It's magnitude has secondary
importance.
Have you performed this experiment and also the first one which you
confirm
them only theoretically?

Regards,
Hamid V. Ansari
hvansari at gmail dot com

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  #7  
Old 09-06-2007, 06:17 AM
Hamid.V.Ansari@gmail.com
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Proposition for performing a series of electromagnetic experiments

On Sep 6, 2:18 am, "Don Kelly" <[Only registered users see links. ]> wrote:
To start consider your first proposition- look at the equation for
the
Presently only existence of the effect of the magnetic conductor is
important
and that it becomes experimentaly proven. It's magnitude has secondary
importance.
Have you performed this experiment and also the first one which you
confirm
them only theoretically?

Regards,
Hamid V. Ansari
hvansari at gmail dot com

Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-09-2007, 10:19 PM
Don Kelly
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Proposition for performing a series of electromagnetic experiments

<[Only registered users see links. ]> wrote in message
news:1189059443.957394.166530@19g2000hsx.googlegro ups.com...
------------
Magnetic conductor-certainly will have an effect-because it will have an
effect on the field in the vicinity of the conductor- I do not know whether
this will increase or decrease the force but, as I said, I would expect a
miniscule increase. Reason indicates this much. The problem that I expect is
that, in most cases, it falls within the margin of errors in experimental
work and necessary approximations in theoretical analysis (calculations from
theory will require approximations and y numerical field analysis).
As to the medium- think- what do you expect?

No- I haven't done measurements-presently neither the resources nor the
desire. Neither have you. You have set up a number of artificial
proposals -why? do you have an alternative theory that gives different
results in these cases than conventional theory?


--

Don Kelly [Only registered users see links. ]
remove the X to answer
----------------------------



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  #9  
Old 09-09-2007, 10:19 PM
Don Kelly
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Proposition for performing a series of electromagnetic experiments

<[Only registered users see links. ]> wrote in message
news:1189059443.957394.166530@19g2000hsx.googlegro ups.com...
------------
Magnetic conductor-certainly will have an effect-because it will have an
effect on the field in the vicinity of the conductor- I do not know whether
this will increase or decrease the force but, as I said, I would expect a
miniscule increase. Reason indicates this much. The problem that I expect is
that, in most cases, it falls within the margin of errors in experimental
work and necessary approximations in theoretical analysis (calculations from
theory will require approximations and y numerical field analysis).
As to the medium- think- what do you expect?

No- I haven't done measurements-presently neither the resources nor the
desire. Neither have you. You have set up a number of artificial
proposals -why? do you have an alternative theory that gives different
results in these cases than conventional theory?


--

Don Kelly [Only registered users see links. ]
remove the X to answer
----------------------------



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  #10  
Old 09-10-2007, 10:30 AM
Hamid.V.Ansari@gmail.com
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Proposition for performing a series of electromagnetic experiments

On Sep 10, 1:19 am, "Don Kelly" <[Only registered users see links. ]> wrote:


YES. I need (and desire) to do experiments but I have no facilities,
and
you hane no idea and no desire to do experiments (being satisfied with
the
current theories) and have so facilities!
My propositions are not baseless. I have an example:
Some years ago during an article I proposed an experiment on just
these
same groups and someone performed the experiment. Let me quote a
part of the postings here (you can search Google for the full postings
in this
respect):

Considering the above-mentioned material it is shown that, contrary
to the current belief, capacitance of a capacitor does not at all
depend on the dielectric used in it and depends only on the
configuration of its conductors.

.....

it is shown that
contrary to what the current theory predicts, resonance frequency of
a circuit of RLC will increase by inserting dielectric into the
capacitor (without any change of the geometry of its conductors).

.....

That actually whether or not the resonance frequency of the circuit
increases with inserting dielectric between the plates of the
capacitor (without any change in the plates' configuration) is a
quite practical test for establishing the validity of the theory
presented in this article and invalidity of the current belief in
this respect, or vice versa. Recently this experiment has been
performed with a briliant success for the theory presented in this
article showing specifically increase of the resonance frequency when
inserting the dielectric. Here is the report of an electronics
engineer who could not believe the result of his experiments in
this respect:

| Oh, yes, indeed the resonant frequencies do change as
| drastically as you suggest if you put a dielectric with high
| dielectric constant between the parallel plates of a capacitor.
| I've put an example at the end of this posting.
|
| Example of capacitor with high-K dielectric...
| You can buy "disc ceramic" capacitors with about 1.0nF capacitance.
| These are nominally 1cm diameter, with nominally 0.5mm plate
| separation, with dielectric only between the conductive plates.
| The dielectric has a very high dielectric constant. If you resonant
| such a capacitor with, say, a 5mH inductor, you will find its
| resonant frequency will be about 70kHz. You can replace that
| capacitor with one with the same plate size and spacing but air
| dielectric, resulting in roughly 0.5pF capacitance. Then you will
| find that the measured resonant frequency depends on the self-
| resonance of the inductor, because you will be very hard-pressed to
| make a 5mH inductor with self-capacitance as low as 0.5pF. If you
| choose an inductor of, say, 1uH, properly constructed, then you
| might reasonably see the effects of 0.5pF, but now you will be
| dealing with much more awkward (especially if you have limited
| access to good test equipment) resonant frequencies in the hundreds
| of MHz. You will indeed find that the resonant frequency of that
| inductor with the nominal 1.0nF ceramic-dielectric capacitor will
| be on the order of 5MHz. The Q in each case should be high enough
| (with a well-constructed inductor) to give an easily measured
| resonant frequency. I _could_ do the experiment to specifically
| demonstrate the _dramatic_ shift in resonance, and even use other
| dielectrics less extreme, but I feel no need to: as I told you
| before, I _routinely_ design resonant circuits and filters, even
| taking into account the effects of stray capacitance and inductance
| and the resistances of things like circuit board traces where
| appropriate, and within my understanding of the tolerances of the
| parts and the effects of the strays, I'm never surprised. I am
| CERTAINLY never surprised by a resonance shifting higher as I
| increase capacitance, so long as I'm within the practical range of
| the parts I'm using.
|
| Note on 1uH coil: If you make a coil with #18AWG wire, which is
| about 1.0mm diameter, and make that coil with uniformly spaced
| turns, about 2.6cm diameter turns, spaced out 2.5cm total coil
| length, it will have an inductance about 1.0uH, and its first
| parallel self-resonance at about 190MHz. That implies about 0.7pF
| effective self-capacitance. Adding an external 0.5pF capacitance
| would drop the resonant frequency to about 145MHz.


Regards,
Hamid V. Ansari

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