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Angular Momentum Resonance question

Angular Momentum Resonance question - Physics Forum

Angular Momentum Resonance question - Physics Forum. Discuss and ask physics questions, kinematics and other physics problems.


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  #1  
Old 01-16-2006, 10:23 PM
chan
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Default Angular Momentum Resonance question



Hi,

Spin and orbital angular momentum can add and combine with other
atoms to produce a collective angular momentum. Suppose you can alter
or manipulate the angular momenta of atoms or molecules. What would
be the collective effect? For example, protein folding and
conformation,
does it have unique collective angular momentum states and if there is
a field that can change it, would the folding be affected?

chan

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  #2  
Old 01-16-2006, 11:25 PM
Jim Black
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Default Angular Momentum Resonance question


chan wrote:

Yes, the conscious mind of a truly dedicated person could obviously set
up a subtle unconventional biomorphic field that exerts large torques
on molecules hitherto undetected by science. This would explain why
the time-honored systems of medicine based on qi, chi, and pranic
healing work so well, even though they don't hold up to scientific
testing. That's what you wanted to hear, isn't it, Cinquirer?

"No, no, it's not me, you must be thinking of the other quack from the
Phillipines who happens to sound exactly like me!"

Fusa.

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  #3  
Old 01-17-2006, 01:29 AM
chan
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Default Angular Momentum Resonance question

Jim Black wrote:

Well. I'm testing the concept that Torsion Field can do what you
described.Our brain and body may create such torsion field that can
affect molecules. In other words. Our body can use the torsion field
(if
this exists) as part of regulatory pathway. I'll give an example.
The discovery of Nitric Oxide. who could have thought a gas can
be a part of our body regulatory pathway. When you exercise intensely,
your consume more oxygen, how did the organs convey this to
the heart to create more demands for the arterioles... Prior to 1986.
No one knows. It turns out it is Nitric oxide or signal transmission by
gas produced from cells that convey them to the smooth muscles
to relax and dilate increasing blood food to places in need.

Who could have thought a gas is part of our cells regulatory
pathway. Similarly our body may use Torsion Field, etc.

My most interest in human body is mitochondrial biology and
function which as you know produces ATP with all those Electron
Transport Chain that produces the energy our body needs.
However. This isn't enough. We somehow needs Torsion field or
qi. I don't know if the electron transport chain, etc. need this
field for proper functioning or the organs need the field in addition
to ATP for maximum performance.

Note our connective tissues is connected to most of the cells
cytoskeleton thru integrins that bind them. Torsion field or qi
can move from the connective tissues to the cells which the
cytoskeleton may use for proper intracellular dynamics.
Remember Gyorgi, the Nobel Prize vitamin C discoverer
even proposed proticity or moving hydrogens in the body water
as the extra regulatory pathway. He doesn't belive our nerves
is enough. Many propose different signaling such as solitons,
etc. moving in the body crystalline network to compensate
the nervous system and the circulatory pathway. Hammerof,
Penrose, Frohlich even propose about thermally invariant
coherence in the microtubules, etc. Note Torsion field can serve
this function.

In the future, perhaps 30-50 years from now. Your children or
grandchildren will laugh at your statement when they read
this and learned their grandfather doesn't even consider qi
or torsion field or whatever exist and part of the body regulatory
dynamics (I wonder if goggle will still hold old newsgroup
archives in 2050).

chan

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  #4  
Old 01-17-2006, 09:17 PM
tadchem
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Default Angular Momentum Resonance question


chan wrote:

Both are tensors with complex values. Their measurable projections
into real numbers exhibit mathematical properties analogous to those of
vectors, and hence they are also called 'pseudovectors'
[Only registered users see links. ]
just as the magnetic 'field' is a pseudovector field.

Pseudovectors add but only the *sum* has a projection onto real
numbers. Thus the net angular momentum is a single quantity that
results from the summing of component parts as tensors, followed by the
projection ionto real numbers.


Photons do that nicely. Each photon has an angular momentum of 1 unit,
which can alter the original net angular momentum of an atom or
molecule by either addition or subtraction. This process of photon
absorbtion or emission will also alter the internal energy of the
target.


Absorbtion or emission of the *energy* will alter the *vibrational
state* by adding or subtracting energy from a specific normal mode of
vibration
[Only registered users see links. ]


No. Just a sum.


Bernoulli's Principle
[Only registered users see links. ]
is a mathematically provable theorem. It means in this context that
any change of the configuration (i.e. 'folding') of a protein is a
motion that can be resolved into a finite set of vibrations.

The first trick is in being able to identify the starting configuration
and the energy involved in each mode of vibration.

The second trick is in dealing with 'degenerate' modes - modes which
have identical energies but totally different motions - and controlling
which of those modes gets the energy.

Even for a fairly simple molecule like benzene (C6H6) degeneracy can
complicate things really fast. A 'simple' protein will have any where
from seventeen to several thousand atoms, each contributing 3 degrees
of freedom. (The number of normal modes for a molecule equals the
total number of degrees of freedom minus 3.)

Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA

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  #5  
Old 01-18-2006, 01:51 PM
chan
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Default Angular Momentum Resonance question

tadchem wrote:

In referring to your statement about the internal energy of the
target. In atomic physics, photons can move the electrons from
ground state to excited states. Most often every photon absorbed
is re-emiitted with few thermal transfer. In molecules. Some
photonic energy is transfered to thermal mode. But isn't it
molecules have more complex rotational angular momentum.
Do you think it's more sensitive to low level photonic absorption
and overall conformation. What I mean to say is. As
a result of the molecules extra rotational angular momentum,
can low energy photons (or something) affect its overall state
much more than pure atoms..

But then. Using ordinary living room light. There is no changes in
the vibrational states of molecules (?). I don't recall PCR running
faster
when exposed to light versus in pure darkeness. Although in
laser source, significant amount can be converted to vibrational
energy levels as in the concept or Raman Spectroscopy.

So do you agree generally that in ordinary photons (for example
infrared, visible), the chemical reactions in the body won't be
altered. Or do you think that as a result of the extra rotational
angular momentum of molecules (where the nuclei can rotate
against other nuclei), the same low level photons that
don't affect isolated atoms much would result in the shifting of
the rotations of molecules affecting its conformation and
chemical reactions for example?

BTW... is this whole thing falling under quantum chemistry or
what's the name of the field (about rotations of nuclei in molecules)?

chan





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  #6  
Old 01-19-2006, 12:56 AM
tadchem
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Default Angular Momentum Resonance question


"chan" <[Only registered users see links. ]> wrote in message
news:1137592304.827344.131480@g49g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...

<SNIP>


A molecule can absorb a photon in many ways: the photon can excite
rotational vibrational, or electronic states of the molecule *or any
combinations of the three* as long as the total change in energy and angular
momentum of the molecule corresponds to the total energy and the angular
momentum of the photon.

That is just loose enough to really complicate the spectroscopy: look at a
single absorption band of the hydrogen chloride molecule in figure 3 here
[Only registered users see links. ]
Now this is a simple molecule - two atoms, one bond, a permanent dipole
moment, gas phase (no collisions to speak of).

This band represents the simple stretching of the single bond, with the
exact energy required to stretch the bond corresponding to the *valley* in
the middle of the two "cock's combs".

BUT...
The photon has angular momentum and the stretching of the bond alone doesn't
necessarily change the angular momentum of the molecule, so to accommodate
the change in angular momentum due to absorbing a photon, the molecule must
ALSO change its rate of spin. Since angular momentum is quantized, the
allowable spin states are limited, and the multiple peaks correspond to the
combined vibrational and rotational energy level transitions.


Pure atoms are spherically symmetrical, and have no angular momentum of
their own - although electrons *within* the pure atoms may have angular
momentum.


PCR runs in solution. The thermal effects of interactions between the
enzymes and the solvent totally overwhelm small vibrational effects.

Solution state spectroscopy is a totally different ball game. A single free
electron will not interact with photons below the energies of gamma rays,
but you can put that electron in solution in a suitable solvent (anhydrous
ammonia, for example) and suddenly it will become one of the most strongly
absorbing species we can have in solution. Raise the electron concentration
above about 1 millimolar and the ammonia solution will start acting like a
metal.


There are important exceptions: pigments in the eye absorb light and change
their electronic energy levels in a way that triggers neural responses
allowing us to see, and pigments in the skin can absorb light and wither
stimulate the production of more pigment (tanning) or trigger tissue damage
and the consequent repair mechanisms (sunburn, redness, swelling,
blistering).


Rotation of molecules is only important in the gas phase. In 'condensed'
phases (solids, liquids, solutions, plasma) molecules can't move even a full
revolution before they inevitably bump into something else and 'thermalize'
their rotational energy.


Yes. Also advanced quantum physics. Collectively they are called Quantum
Mechanics.


The *nuclei* of the atoms are generally free to rotate within molecules,
even in condensed phases. Usually it takes a strong fixed magnetic field
and a carefully controlled oscillating magnetic field perpendicular to the
first field to set the nuclei in synchronized motion. A set of antennae
aligned perpendicular to both the fields is required to measure it. This is
the so-called "nuclear magnetic resonance" experiment and is the basis of
the "magnetic resonance imaging" (MRI) that has proven so useful in modern
medicine.


Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA


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  #7  
Old 01-21-2006, 11:00 PM
chan
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Default Angular Momentum Resonance question


tadchem wrote:

btw... thanks for this. It made me realized that a source of pure
angular momentum (torsion field.. without particles) can't and
shouldn't affect atoms so the whole concept of torsion field is
nutty.

Yesterday I got this software that can read Protein Data Files
and display the molecules in 3D. Well. I can't find any part that
can rotate. So the rotation occurs just in the primary stage of
the folding.

If you know good urls that gives good info about the relationship of
brownian motion and electronic transition, let me know. I've been
searching in the net the past days but maybe miss the good ones.

chan

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  #8  
Old 01-22-2006, 02:56 AM
tadchem
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Default Angular Momentum Resonance question


"chan" <[Only registered users see links. ]> wrote in message
news:1137884417.345332.297110@g14g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...

<snip>


Google Advanced Search:
2,060,000 hits for "electronic energy levels heat capacity partition
function"

Brownian motion involves translation - the lowest energy levels involved in
thermal motions. These are accessible at *any* temperature, even
nanokelvins - *billionths* of a degree.

Electronic transitions involve energy levels with the greatest separation,
and become involved when thermal motions are energetic enough to knock
electrons loose from atoms/molecules/ions - i.e. energetic enough to form
plasmas. Typically this occurs at kilokelvin temperatures - *thousands* of
degrees.


Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA


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  #9  
Old 01-22-2006, 09:22 AM
chan
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Default Angular Momentum Resonance question


tadchem wrote:

Thanks. Btw... converting space filling to ball in stick models of the
proteins in 3D. There are some parts that should rotate.. the free
ends connected in single covalent bonds to the main body. So it
looks like some part of a fully intact protein can still rotate and
this
is when it doesn't lock to the substrate (or thermalized). Now isn't
it that rotating charge should produce electromagnetic field, then I
wonder what is the relevance of this tiny electromagnetic field
produced in the rotating outside portion of a protein linked with
single bond (I know 2 covalent bond can't make it rotate) to
the main body.

Wonder if you are a biophysicist or pure chemist.

chan

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  #10  
Old 01-22-2006, 05:30 PM
tadchem
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Default Angular Momentum Resonance question


chan wrote:

<snip repost>


Good idea. Space-filling models are good for visualizing the effects
of steric hindrance, but the ball-and-stick models let you see the axes
that will permit rotations. Both are useful. If you can I would
suggest making *physical* models because they will allow you to explore
more complex vibrations intermediate to localized modes and folding
motions.


Substituent groups that attach to the polypeptide spine (with the
exception of cystine cross linages) are generally free to rotate and
vibrate within the steric confines of the folded protein. Of course,
some like alanine with small substituent groups (-CH3) will be less
confined by such geometric considerations than others, like tryptophane
with larger sunstituent groups.


Correct. Any moving charge produces a magnetic field. That is the
meaning of Amperé's Law. But the atoms in a protein are mostly
neutral. At best one can find amphoterism, in which the proton and its
charge from an acid group is transferred to an amino group to produce
an electric dipole - seen most often in aqueous solutions, and the
longer the protein the weaker the effect. Otherwise one may see mostly
localized dipoles. Actual 'charges' in a protein are rare.


The electrostatic forces of charges tend to weaken with the square of
distance. Magnetic forces (always dipoles or higher order) weaken with
the *cube* of distance. Not only are they secondary in strength to the
electric forces, but they weaken with distance far more rapidly.

Only the most exacting treatments of the electromagnetic forces in
molecules will *not* disregard magnetic dipoles.


I have done inorganic, physical, theoretical, and analytical chemistry
professionally. I never took a biochemistry course. I am not even
really a physicist. The 'chem' in my 'tadchem' nick is intended to
convey the ID: "Thomas A. Davidson, CHEMist."


Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA

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