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Moving Dimensions Theory Explains Time in Both QM & SR: Roger Penrose Has Been Seeking Moving Dimensions Theory

Moving Dimensions Theory Explains Time in Both QM & SR: Roger Penrose Has Been Seeking Moving Dimensions Theory - Physics Forum

Moving Dimensions Theory Explains Time in Both QM & SR: Roger Penrose Has Been Seeking Moving Dimensions Theory - Physics Forum. Discuss and ask physics questions, kinematics and other physics problems.


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Old 07-13-2005, 02:54 PM
jollyrogership@yahoo.com
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Default Moving Dimensions Theory Explains Time in Both QM & SR: Roger Penrose Has Been Seeking Moving Dimensions Theory



Roger Penrose longs for Moving Dimensions Theory. Where he falls short
in the following discussion is where he states, "the future is out
there." The future is not out there. But where Penrose steers close
is in acknowledging, "I think we need a new way to look at time, not
either Quantum Mechanics or Relativity." MD Theory offers this new
way.

Time is an emergent phenomena. Time happens because a fourth dimension
is expanding relative to the three spatial dimensions.

Moving Dimensions Theory offers a new way of looking at time underlying
both QM and SR a phenoma that emerges from the MD Theory: THE FOURTH
DIMENSION IS EXPANDING AT A RATE OF C RELATIVE TO THE THREE SPATIAL
DIMENSIONS IN QUANTIZED UNITS OF THE PLANCK LENGTH, GIVING RISE TO TIME
AND ALL QUANTUM MECHANICAL AND RELATIVISTIC PHENOMENA.

[Only registered users see links. ]

Penrose's mistaken view of "the future being out there" arises
because of physicists misleadingly labeling "time" the fourth
dimension, thus implying that just as we can move anywhere in the three
spatial dimensions, such as up and down and back again, so too can we
move anywhere in the time dimension, to the past, the future, and back
again, implying that both the past and future must exist, as sure as
New York and Los Angeles.

But time is not so much the fourth dimension as it is an emergent
phenomena that arises because a fourth dimension is expanding at the
rate of c relative to the three spatial dimensions in a spherically
symmetric manner in units of the Planck length.

Dr. E has added to the following dialogue with Roger Penrose, showing
how Moving Dimensions Theory can unify the concept of time in SR and
QM-in fact all phenomena in SR and QM might be accounted for by
Moving Dimensions Theory. The original dialogue may be found here:
[Only registered users see links. ]

Roger Penrose : "I think there's always something paradoxical about
the way we seem to perceive time to pass and the way physics describes
time."

Dr. E: Moving Dimensions Theory alleviates this paradox by viewing
time as an emergent phenomena-something that arises because the
fourth dimension is expanding relative to the three stationary spatial
dimensions.

Roger Penrose : Space-time is certainly different stuff from space
because its 4 dimensional instead of 3-D (RP larfs!) which is a big
diff. Time really has to be brought into the picture; this one thing
which is space/time.

Physicist : Just imagine what this might be like: 3-D space implies a
volume, and you can move any where in that volume. Once you add time as
a 4th dimension, another axis, then this block of space/time would
contain within it past, present and future, all at once. Time is
frozen, all times exist together; so just as you can say "over here,
over there" in 3-D space, you can talk about "over then", in 4-D
space/time.

Roger Penrose : It's a way of looking at things if you like which
physically we seem to be forced into. I say physically from the point
of view of what the theory of rel. tells us. And Relativity is
remarkably well tested, I mean, 14 places of decimal, it's just
incredible. So we know that this theory does describe the universe to
an extraordinarily precise degree, so we have to take it seriously. And
that theory tells us that we have to regard space and time as one
thing, it's all out there, it's one thing. In the same sense that
space is out there, time is out there.

Dr. E: No-the past and future are not out there. There is indeed a
fourth dimension, and that dimension is expanding relative to the three
spatial dimensions at the rate of c in units of the Planck length. We
perceive time-the past and the future-as events and dreams in our
memories and minds, based on the interaction of the fourth expanding
dimension with the three stationary dimensions.

Narrator : Like the Medieval God's-view of time, Einstein's physics
says that the future is already out there. The moments of our lives are
just waiting for us to step into them.

Roger Penrose : But there's no more problem about the future being out
there than saying that space is out there. You say, "Mars is out
there", but why is that more comprehensible than saying "next week is
out there"? It's just as far away in a certain sense.

Physicist : If you take this block of 4-D space/time literally, it
means you have to abandon free will. It means not only is the future
pre-ordained, but its already there, its already happened. There's no
point in making any decisions, whatever you do has already happened. If
I choose to drop this stone into a pond, I think of it being my own
free choice, but of course in 4-D space/time I had no choice in
dropping the stone ; the splash is already there in the future and so
we lose all free will. If time travel was possible, you can imagine
people coming back from the future to visit us; its no good us saying,
"you cant exist - you haven't happened yet".They've come from a time
which they consider to be their 'now' and for them we're in their path.


Roger Penrose : So this means that in a sense, the present past and
future are out there, and that also gives us a very deterministic view
of the world. We have no control of what happens in the future because
its all laid out. I think the trouble that people have with this idea
is that you think the future is under your control, to some degree, and
so this means that if the future's laid out then in a sense its not
under your control.

Physicist : Personally I'm very uncomfortable about the block universe
idea. Now this may be just a gut feeling or just irrational, but can't
accept the future's already 'out there'. I don't accept that I don't
have any free will.

Roger Penrose : I think there is a positive side to this picture of
space and time being laid out there as 4 dimensions, because it tells
you that all times are there once and it can affect the way one thinks
about people who have died. I mean, I remember thinking in this kind of
way when my mother died. In some sense she was still there because her
existence is still out there in space/time although in our time she is
not alive. A colleague of mine had a son who died in tragic
circumstances and I presented this idea to him and it helped his
understanding also. This was before I heard that Einstein had a
colleague died and he wrote to the man's wife that Bessa was still out
there, and that somehow this was reassuring. I certainly think this way
often, that space/time is laid out and that things in the past and
things in the future are out there still.

Narrator : But almost at the same time that Relativity was gaining
universal acceptance a radically different picture of the universe was
emerging.

Physicist : The way out if you don't want to accept the block universe
idea is quantum mechanics. Now, Quantum Mechanics is the second great
discovery of the 20th century physics and that states that the future
isn't predetermined and preordained.

Narrator : Quantum Mechanics was born out of a series of experiments
whose results even today have no satisfactory explanation. Relativity
works at the large scale where it provides exact predictions as to what
will happen next. But when physicists started looking down at the
atomic and sub-atomic level, the familiar laws failed. At this level,
there were no certainties, only probabilities. How can the future of
the universe be already out there if the future of a single molecule is
so utterly unpredictable?

Dr. E: The future of the universe is not already out there. Both
quantum mechanics and relativity derive from the same underlying
physical reality of a fourth dimension expanding relative to three
spatial dimensions at the rate of c in units of the Planck length. The
wave-particle duality of matter comes from the inherent non-locality of
any matter at a point in the expanding dimension, which would appear as
photons expanding in a spherically symmetric manner at the rate of c.
The constant speed of light also comes from the physical reality of the
fourth dimension expanding relative to the three stationary spatial
dimensions. No matter how fast the emitter is traveling, the expanding
dimension yet carries the photon at the rate of c.

Physicist : Before we look to see what the atom is doing, not only is
there a gap in our knowledge, the atom itself has not decided what to
do. It had an infinite number of choices to make, it will be doing all
those choices all at once, and its only when we look to see what is
happening do we force it to make a choice. In Quantum Mechanics the
future is not determined, and so Quantum Mechanics in a sense rescues
us and rescues free will.

Roger Penrose : In a sense you don't have the future laid out in
Quantum Mechanics So Quantum Mechanics. is basically different in the
way we look at it. You do have this indeterminacy about the future and
a necessary feature of this is its incompatibility with Special
Relativity. So we have these 2 great theories, both of which are
extremely accurate, tell us something about how the world operates,
something very insightful and profound and accurate, but they're
incompatible with each other. So there's no doubt there's something
missing here. How important it is to how we 'feel' the passage of time
is I think very important.

Dr. E: But QM and SR perfectly compatible theories. In SR there is no
certain future-that is a byproduct of mistakenly looking at time as a
fourth dimension on equal footing with the three spatial dimensions.
The passage of time happens because of matter interacting with a
dimension that is expanding relative to the three spatial dimensions.
And all quantum mechanical and relativistic effects may be traced back
to Moving Dimensions Theory.

Narrator: The tragedy of modern physics is that it explains so much of
the objective universe but at the cost of what we subjectively feel;
about our conscious free will and our feeling that time does flow.

Faun Flynn: I very much think there's a flow to time. If you consider
what music would be like if there was no flow to time. You couldn't
have music if you didn't have memory, or if you didn't have an
expectation generated by that memory. You'd have an isolated note in
the 'now'. Music unfolds in time in such a way that we have a memory of
what we've heard, and this memory conditions to what we expect. This of
course is something that everybody is familiar with, because if you
hear ( 7 note scale played on piano) you have a very strong expectation
that the next note will be (plays final octave note of scale) . Music
is a distillation or a side-effect of that mental faculty we employ to
perceive time, and things changing in time.

Roger Penrose : The question of the passage of time is something the
scientists have rather set aside, and taking the view that its not
really physics, it's a subjective issue; and subjective questions are
not part of science. Now when you start talking about phenomena like
one's own perception of the passage of time, then that is a subjective
thing. And that's almost a taboo subject for science because it's
subjective. The physical world at least according to Relativity, is out
there, and there is no flow of time, it's just there; whereas our
feeling (we have this feeling of the passage of time) are intimately
connected to our perceptions.

Dr. E: Indeed scientists too often choose their battles selfishly,
thereby solving problems by saying that they do not need to be solved,
while simultaneously concentrating on obscure theories, spending
millions on building empty temples for the herd. The physical future
is not out there according to relativity. The passage of time is the
result of the propagation of energy. The aging of cells, the
oscillations of a quartz crystal, the unwinding of a clock spring, the
swing of a pendulum-all of these have to do with the exchange of
photons and thus the propagation of energy. And energy propagates at
the constant rate of c throughout the universe because the fourth
dimension, which carries matter that we perceive as photons, is
expanding at the rate of c relative to the three spatial dimensions, in
units of the Planck length.

Physicist : We have this subjective feeling, that time goes by, but
physicists would argue this is just an illusion.

Roger Penrose : Yes I think physicists would agree that the feeling of
time passing is simply an illusion, something that is not real. It has
something to do with our perceptions.

Dr. E: The passage of time is real. Time's arrow, or entropy, or the
second law of thermodynamics are all explained by Moving Dimensions
Theory. Because a fourth dimension is expanding at the rate of c in a
spherically symmetric manner, all particles have a probability of being
displaced in a spherically symmetric manner. Thus any two particles
close to each other will wander apart.

Narrator : Illusion or not, our perceptions emerge somewhere between
the cosmic scale of Relativity where the flow of time is frozen and the
quantum scale, where flow descends to uncertainty. Our world is on a
scale governed by a mixture of chance and necessity.

Roger Penrose : My view is that there is some large scale quantum
activity going on in the brain. Physics does not say that Quantum
Mechanics takes place in small areas, but also take place over larger
areas. I think this has to do with the consciousness. I think we need a
new way to look at time, not either Quantum Mechanics or Relativity.

Dr. E: Moving Dimensions offers this new way of looking at time. Time
is not the fourth dimension, but it is a phenomena that arises because
a fourth spatial dimension is expanding relative to the three
stationary spatial dimensions.

Narrator : If Quantum Mechanics is taking place in the brain then the
same randomness of outcome and unpredictability might explain our
ability to make sometime random choices. Opening up the future to the
possibility of change would provide the first step of restoring to
physics the flow of time it currently denies.

Physicist : I don't think time flows, I feel that time flows, but I
feel we can only understand this if we have a better understanding of
how consciousness works. I think human consciousness probably has the
secrets as to how and why we think of time as going by.

Roger Penrose : I don't think we have the tools, I don't think we have
the physical picture to accommodate these things yet. We're not very
close to it.

Dr. E: Moving Dimensions Theory has just brought us closer. String
theorists and LQG gurus have a lot to gain from this.

Original Penrsoe dialogue:
[Only registered users see links. ]

MD THEORY:
[Only registered users see links. ]
[Only registered users see links. ]
[Only registered users see links. ]

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  #2  
Old 07-13-2005, 10:37 PM
Bill Hobba
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Default Moving Dimensions Theory Explains Time in Both QM & SR: Roger Penrose Has Been Seeking Moving Dimensions Theory


<[Only registered users see links. ]> wrote in message
news:1121266441.988306.178170@z14g2000cwz.googlegr oups.com...

Do you really think posting the same rot that has been refuted many times
makes in any truer? From 2001
[Only registered users see links. ]

'You need to learn how to relate an equation to the physical situation to
which it applies (if any). You attempt to make sweeping conclusions based
upon quite narrow assumptions, and the equations you use don't relate to
your conclusions at all.'

You failure to even address such concerns labels you as a fully paid up
member of the kook crank brigade.

Bill

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[Only registered users see links. ]


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  #3  
Old 07-14-2005, 04:13 AM
Nick
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Default Moving Dimensions Theory Explains Time in Both QM & SR: Roger Penrose Has Been Seeking Moving Dimensions Theory

Dimensions are dynamic.
Happy to hear Penrose is on to it.
He is Hawking's superior.

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  #4  
Old 07-14-2005, 02:11 PM
greatbooksclassics@yahoo.com
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Default Moving Dimensions Theory Explains Time in Both QM & SR: Roger Penrose Has Been Seeking Moving Dimensions Theory

Hello Nick,

Where else have you heard of Moving Dimensions Theory?

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  #5  
Old 07-15-2005, 10:03 PM
jollyrogership@yahoo.com
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Default Moving Dimensions Theory Explains Time in Both QM & SR: Roger Penrose Has Been Seeking Moving Dimensions Theory

MOVING DIMENSIONS THEORY
The purpose of physics has ever been to unify diverse physical
phenomena with simple postulates, laws, and formulas reflecting the
deeper physical reality. Moving Dimensions Theory (MDT) unifies
Relativity and Quantum Mechanics by positing that they are both
emergent properties of moving dimensions. MDT can be summed up with a
simple postulate: the fourth dimension is expanding relative to the
three spatial dimensions. MDT offers the first satisfactory
explanation of the Einstein Podolsky Rosen (EPR) effect and the
nonlocal behavior inherent to the math and physical reality of quantum
mechanics. Time itself is viewed not as the fourth dimension, but as
an emergent phenomena arising from the expansion of the fourth
dimension relative to the three spatial dimensions. This logic
alleviates a confusion of time with an actual fourth dimension where
one can travel back and forth, thus addressing Godel's, Einstein's,
Hawking's, and Penrose's concerns about frozen time.

[Only registered users see links. ]

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  #6  
Old 07-16-2005, 11:04 PM
greatbooksclassics@yahoo.com
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Default Moving Dimensions Theory Explains Time in Both QM & SR: Roger Penrose Has Been Seeking Moving Dimensions Theory

[Only registered users see links. ]

Wikipedia states:

Julian Barbour

Julian Barbour (born 1937) is a British physicist. He is the author of
The End of Time, Absolute or Relative Motion? and The Discovery of
Dynamics.

He holds the controversial view that time does not exist, and that most
of physics' troubles arise from assuming that it does exist. He argues
that we have no evidence of the past other than our memory of it, and
no evidence of the future other than our belief in it. It is all an
illusion: there is no motion and no change.

Moving Dimensions Theory (MDT) agrees with Barbour in that the past
does not exist.

However there is motion and there is change, bourne upon the fourth
dimension that is expanding at a relative rate to the three spatial
dimensions.

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  #7  
Old 07-16-2005, 11:50 PM
N:dlzc D:aol T:com \(dlzc\)
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Default Moving Dimensions Theory Explains Time in Both QM & SR: Roger Penrose Has Been Seeking Moving Dimensions Theory

Dear mediocrebooksclassics:

<[Only registered users see links. ]> wrote in message
news:1121555089.000423.263660@g47g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
....

When did you formulate it? So it was impressed into your head
just as you posted? So you are believer that the Universe et al
suffers from Alzheimers?

"Look, my book has chrome bumpers, just like an Edsel!"

David A. Smith


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  #8  
Old 07-17-2005, 03:13 AM
greatbooksclassics@yahoo.com
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Default Moving Dimensions Theory Explains Time in Both QM & SR: Roger Penrose Has Been Seeking Moving Dimensions Theory

Barbour writes,

[Only registered users see links. ]

My ideas about time all developed from the realization that if nothing
were to change we could not say that times passes. Change is primary,
time, if it exists at all, is something we deduce from it.

My Italian collaborator Bruno Bertotti and I found that the deep
structure of Einstein's general theory of relativity does correspond to
this truth. It is telling us that time does not exist as an independent
thing and that change is indeed primary. However, this is in the
framework of so-called classical physics, the form of physics that
developed before quantum mechanics was discovered. When the idea that
time has no independent existence is combined with the basic facts of
quantum mechanics in the simplest possible way, the implications are
startling.

The quantum universe is static. Only timeless Nows exist. The quantum
rules give them different probabilities. We experience the most
probable Nows as individual instants of time. The appearance of motion
and a flow of time are both illusions created by very special structure
of the instants that we experience.

[Only registered users see links. ]

MDT fully agrees with this.

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  #9  
Old 07-17-2005, 07:45 AM
Nick
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Default Moving Dimensions Theory Explains Time in Both QM & SR: Roger Penrose Has Been Seeking Moving Dimensions Theory

Its my theory.
It sprung from reading a man named Masters.
He thought space was created by a motion shooting
ahead of matter. He said that he thought the motion
was infinite.

Its not infinite it is the fundamental constant
we know of as the speed of light.
Catch up to it and it gives all the results of
Relativity.

Dimensions are dynamic!

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  #10  
Old 07-17-2005, 07:49 AM
Nick
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Default Moving Dimensions Theory Explains Time in Both QM & SR: Roger Penrose Has Been Seeking Moving Dimensions Theory

Julian should know that there is no end to time.
It will always continue even in a black hole.

You can never catch up to light and c is the
speed of time.

Light can never be brought to rest.
And light shares the motion of time.

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