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Qi: Standard Model Extension or Fifth Force?

Qi: Standard Model Extension or Fifth Force? - Physics Forum

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  #1  
Old 11-09-2003, 08:07 AM
cinquirer
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Default Qi: Standard Model Extension or Fifth Force?



(Below after the text are many references such as research web
sites, experimental proofs, etc.).

I have extensive experiences with Qi numbering over a decade with
thousands of subjects and Qi healers from all over the world.
After months looking in physics group and internet for the atomic
model that can explain the physics of Qi and non_local effects.
I have encountered numerous models that attempt to describe it.
But it always falls short of the complete answer. Maybe the
truth is a combination of them. Maybe someone among you can make
sense what it is by the following short description of what
Qi can do (in the next paragraph). There are many physics wizards
here and one may figure out whether we are dealing with a Fifth
Force or a Qi Boson, etc. Note Qi is not biology or physics but
Bio-particle-physics that may even use substructure of the
Superstrings and beyond. Whatever Qi ultimately is. It is not a
misunderstanding of ordinary phenomenon (as explained below).

Let's say for now that each atom or cell of our body needs Qi
(or Life Force that is as real as photons). Without Qi, our cells
can't function optimally. It's as if the ATP cell fuel needs Qi
in one of its reactions. Qi is not oxygen nor glucose but seems
to be an extention or working part of matter itself. It's as if the
antiparticle of every particle of our body has a virtual energy state
that can tell the integrity of the physical body or perhaps an
anti-mirror energy particle? One very vital application of Qi is
in Qi therapy. When we have diseases like infections in our body,
the Qi in the affected part has grosser vibration. This can affect
the nearby cells and slow down the healing since the biochemical
structure is intimately interactive with Qi. So what we do is
clean the dirty Qi and replace with fresh ones. The patient gets
dramatic relief much faster than without Qi treatment because the
biochemical reactions can be affected by Qi. And this is enough to
prevent amputations like in gangrene infections where the Qi treatment
can make it subside very fast. This works in all infections too where
Qi therapy can prevent fatal infections, etc. as well as accelerate the
healing. This is entirely ignored in the medical field and the next
step in medicine breakthrough is to study this Qi interaction with
the biochemical pathway and their balancing.

Qi is non_local too. It's as if the anti-mirror part of each
particle is located in a higher spacetime where distance
doesn't matter. We can treat the qi of people even miles
away. What we do is we tap into the information space
and make intent to remove the diseased qi of the patient
to faciliate faster healing and this altering in the information
space is reflected in real time in the body of the patient.

Parallel to the concept of qi is the Bioetheric body or
what Dr. Tiller called Conjugate Body. The Bioetheric
body (excuse the term as there is no exact term yet)
is simply the energy extension (its anti mirror particle?)
of the particles in our body. And Qi is what powers it
or maintain its organization and interconnected.

Does anyone knows of any atomic model that includes
a constant interchange of virtual particles with the space.
Maybe Qi is the force carrier of the Higgs Field that
relay the Higgs bosons to the particles?? Or something
along that line? Any theory.

The following is an experiment where organization of water
can be affected at a distance, even countries apart. One
of the Qi emitter is someone I know so we can repeat the
experiments if you have a sensitive measuring device or
sorta.

[Only registered users see links. ]

The following is the website of Dr. Tiller who has done extensive
research and has setup experiments (reproducable) that can make
you change the enzyme activies at will by simply using intent and/or
qi coupling. His theory is a bit complicated and I'm seeking other
alternative one from amongst you.

[Only registered users see links. ]

The following are some general references about Qi and research centers.

[Only registered users see links. ]

[Only registered users see links. ]

Read again the China Qi experiment as we can produce the
same changes in matter as done in other experiments.

[Only registered users see links. ]

Some worldwide directory where I corresponded with the thousands.

[Only registered users see links. ]

[Only registered users see links. ]

c
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  #2  
Old 11-10-2003, 12:03 PM
Mark Fergerson
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Default Qi: Standard Model Extension or Fifth Force?

cinquirer wrote:

How many of these experiences involved double-blind test
protocolss?

<snip>


There's this new invention called "the paragraph". Try
using it.

You make poor distinctions; frinst between atoms and
cells. Is an atom the smallest entity affectable by Qi? If
so, are individual atoms "alive"? Does it matter which atoms
we're talking about? It shouldn't, since living tissue
contains much more than CHO&N, frinst many "toxic" metals
are absolutely essential in the proper amounts. We then have
no clear distinction between "organic" and "inorganic"
matter according to your usage. However, you then have no
need for Qi since the structure of inorganic molecules is
nicely explained without it.

Squid neurons are much larger than mammalian ones. Are
they more "alive" than ours?

Before trying to determine something's properties, first
demonstrate that it exists. There's no need for exotic
particles to describe Qi if it doesn't exist.

And again, how many of these alleged "Qi healings" are
double-blinds?


You half-assed Hermeticists crack me up. Remember the
_other_ half of that famous misquote; "As below, so above".
If your "healthy" Qi is making my "sick" Qi better, mine is
making yours sick, too.


Somebody would have noticed little things like
gang-particle decays when all the Higgs bosons were drawn
out of a patient's body.


If you have no measurement protocol, you're not
measureing anything.


Way too many unisolated variables. What exactly is he
measuring?


Ya know, if you put shit in pretty bags, people will
actually give you money for it.

Mark L. Fergerson

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  #3  
Old 11-10-2003, 12:43 PM
Bjoern Feuerbacher
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Posts: n/a
Default Qi: Standard Model Extension or Fifth Force?

cinquirer wrote:

Any double-blind tests?



Mostly from crackpots, apparently.



Or with imagination.



How do you know?



Atom or cell? Why not something in between?

And why should we say this?

And what is "life force"? How can we measure it?



Well, we understand the ATP reactions quite well, so I don't know where
Qi would be needed there.



"seems to be"? Which experiments suggest this?



Sorry, I don't understand what you try to say here.



What vibrates there?

And how do you know that the Qi in the affected part has grosser
vibration?



How? And where is the evidence that this happens?



Evidence?



How?



Ever heard of the placebo effect?

Ever done any double-blind tests?



Sounds like placebo effect to me: if the patients feels that he is cared
for, and beliefs that the treatment helps, it *does* help.



Well, maybe because they are no double-blind studies which demonstrate
its effectiveness? (if there are such studies, please point them out to
me)



How do you know?



New age gibberish.



Evidence from double-blind studies for this, please.



What's this?



This does work only if the patient knows that you are "working" on his
Qi, I bet.



What does "energy extension" mean?



How do you know?



Exchange of particle with the space? Huh? What is this supposed to mean?



Huh? What do you mean by "relaying" here?

And why do you think that Qi has anything to do with Higgs bosons?



First please present double-blind tests which show the existence of Qi.



The experiment described there doesn't sound double-blind to me, and
isn't statistically significant (one trial only, apparently!).



Are his experiments double-blind? I bet, no.



Any double-blind studies there?



Quickly scanning the article, it seems that lots of high-tech equipment
was used, but not one single double-blind test was done. If I am wrong
on this, please correct me.



Any double-blind studies there?


Bye,
Bjoern
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  #4  
Old 11-10-2003, 04:37 PM
tadchem
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Default Qi: Standard Model Extension or Fifth Force?


"Mark Fergerson" <[Only registered users see links. ]> wrote in message
news:[Only registered users see links. ]...

<snip>


Or decorate it...
[Only registered users see links. ]


Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA


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  #5  
Old 11-11-2003, 01:47 AM
cinquirer
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Default Qi: Standard Model Extension or Fifth Force?

Mark, Tadchem, Bjoern,


I don't know how to explain Qi in physics.. as its physics
is not yet discovered. It's like explaining blood in the
16th century. People know it existed but only 20th century
science can explain it. Likewise with Qi. Only 22th century
physics may explain it (although many scientists have tried.
And I'm seeking alternative theories and especially want to
understand how you can fit it all in the Standard Model or
enhanced one. Now what is Qi. Well. I have discussed this at
length in the newsgroup alt.sci.physics.new.theories spanning
over months where every theory by different scientists are put
forward (such as Glen Rein, Dr. Hunt, Barbara Brennan, and
dozens of others). See what they say by searching "cinquirer"
in
[Only registered users see links. ]

Let's just focus on the experiments here. Know someone who
can setup the proper instrument with utmost sensitivity that
can test reaction time in enzyme activities, cells, etc. even
water molecules. You can change their parameters by
simply emitting Qi to it from your hands. Dr. Tiller has done
this and his experiments can be repeated by others and I'm
awaiting details of it in his book. See [Only registered users see links. ] The
organization Subtle Energy Research has also many scientists
working on it.
see
[Only registered users see links. ]

I'm still awaiting their full materials and so one
can get more references and facts by going directly to those
organization. There are also many references elsewhere and
I'd search for them again as I've lost track of them (but I
will look for them again including double blind studies (this
can increase exponentially if scientists would only be open
minded but unfortunately majority don't even consider its
possibility making any tests so how can they confirm it is not
real with even any test)..

I deal with Qi extensively. This is because I live in the same
country as the founder of Pranic (Qi) Healing which has branches
in almost all countries and thousands of practioners including
many doctors worldwide. I am categorical of the existence
of Qi and its non_local effects from extensive hands on and
I'd give $1 million dollar to anyone who can debunk it.. lol...
The following is a manual we use in pranic or qi healing. In
there is shared the different vibrations of Qi (corresponding
to "colors" and how different cells, tissues and their states
(such as disease, health) can give different vibrations and
how we directly manipulate it. Tests have shown how they
can affect cells and controlling its behaviors.

[Only registered users see links. ]

[Only registered users see links. ]

(read this editorial comments for some intro about the different
vibrations of qi as someone inquired and a doctor experience
on it, as well as thousands of others. Different books by different
authors also document it. It just so happen I know the group very
well)

Right now. I want to focus in understanding the physics of
Qi even if Superstrings or other theories (which may be
connected to it) is not yet perfected. I just want to have a
rough idea of what Qi is. Normally qi healers don't care
what it is. So I can't discuss physics with them. So
physicists who are open minded or even have experience
with Qi are the best ones to discuss with to make sense
of whether Qi is a fifth force or part of material not yet
understood by science. I don't know if it interacts with
individual atom or larger unit such as cell in a long range
kind of interaction. Glen Rein and others are inquiring
about this too (see his book Quantum Biology). That's
why I research the stuff of Guliano Conforto in her book
as I want to understand whether single atoms or bigger
unit such as cells that make functioning part that involves
consciousness is what interacted with Qi. To understand
the physics of Qi. It is important to know first if they
are just misunderstood ordinary phenomenon such as
ATP cell fuel process, etc. But they are not. They seem
to be connected to a subtle part of matter. If we would
say, are they virtual particles. We may collide with the
physicists definition of them that is already understood.
So let me avoid any scientific linking and just use the
generic term Qi. And not speculate whether they may
be shadow symmetrical particles or anti/mirror particles,
etc. as I did in the past few messages. They are just
hypothesis of what Qi may be based on, and the truth
may be altogether different and more complex than them.

c



Bjoern Feuerbacher <[Only registered users see links. ].uni-heidelberg.de> wrote in message news:<[Only registered users see links. ].uni-heidelberg.de>...
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  #6  
Old 11-11-2003, 10:04 AM
Bjoern Feuerbacher
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Default Qi: Standard Model Extension or Fifth Force?

cinquirer, it would be nice if you would answer some question simply
instead of responding to every post with a long sermon, in which you
basically say always exactly the same things you've said already 20
times before... You quoted my whole post below, so I marked all the
places where you didn't answer a question with a simple "Hello?", and
add some further comments. Care to answer these questions now?


cinquirer wrote:

Neither Mark nor me asked for an explanation of Qi. What we asked
for were *double-blind tests*. Did you miss that somehow?



Better question: Does Qi exist? You keep claiming that it does, but so
far, you haven't presented even one doubleb-blind test, as far as I can
see (sorry if you did and I missed it!).



I may look at what they say after I have seen convincing experimental
evidence for the existence of Qi.



Err, did you miss my question if the experiments done there were
double-blind?



Well, you claim that Qi exists, hence it's your duty to come up with
experimental evidence for it - read: double-blind tests. I don't want to
search a whole web site to find out in the end that the tests done there
weren't properly controlled.



Thanks.

BTW, have you ever heard of James Randi's challenge? By demonstrating
Qi, you could win a million dollar! (and please spare me comments that
the man is a fraud or something like that) See [Only registered users see links. ].



If you can present experimental evidence for it from properly controlled
tests, then scientists will accept it.



Yes, you mentioned this already one or two times...



If you think the fact that it is widespread makes it somehow valid,
consider how widespread astrology is...



Well, as already said above, you can *earn* 1 million dollar by
demonstrating it.



Sorry, not interested before I haven't seen experimental evidence from
properly controlled tests.

[snip]



Again the argument: "lots of people believe it works, hence it works!".
Do you really think this is convincing?



Again I ask you: why do you jump from atoms to cells? Why not something
in between?



Even if Qi exists - stop relying on Conforto. She obviously isn't
qualified to talk about physics. She is a total crackpot who doesn't
understand what she is talking about.



How do you know?



How do you know?



Sorry, I don't understand this.



Well, then choose another term!



What does this mean?



So, a hypotheses of what Qi may be based on consist in your opinion of
inventing some buzz words without ever saying what they mean?



Perhaps.


[snip]



Hello?



Hello?




Hello?




Hello?



Hello?




Hello?



Hello?




Hello?




Hello?




Hello?




Hello?


[snip]



Hello?

[snip]



Even if this evidence exists - how does this show that Qi is non-local?
It could travel with a high speed (e.g. light speed) from the healer to
the patient - how would you distinguish such a high speed from a
non-local effect?





Hello?




Hello?




Hello?




Hello?




Hello?




Hello?



[snip]


Bye,
Bjoern
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  #7  
Old 11-11-2003, 10:06 AM
tadchem
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Default Qi: Standard Model Extension or Fifth Force?


"cinquirer" <[Only registered users see links. ]> wrote in message
news:69cb3a95.0311101747.2f44ab16@posting.google.c om...

<snip>

An explanation of the "physics" of *anything* requires a feedback mechanism
between the theory and the facts. When the theory *predicts* the results of
observations _and_ the observations confirm the theoretical predictions,
then one has a viable theory that can be said to "explain" something.

To be honest, the person who makes the predictions should not be the one who
makes the observations, and the one who makes the observations should be
able to describe his work in sufficient detail that others can replicate it.

Stanford Research Institute still has not recovered the credibility it lost
by endorsing Uri Geller's sleights-of-hand as "paranormal phenomena." James
Randi was able to demonstrate that the identical phenomena to those claimed
by Geller *and* by his observers at SRI could be easily produced with normal
(non-paranormal) means and a willingness to deceive (on the part of the
experimental "subject") and an ability (if not a willingness) to be deceived
(on the parts of the observers.)

If other people were able to generate phenomena in which the radioactivity
of unstable isotopes could be altered, as measured by other observers, then
you would have something - especially if the alteration of radioactivity
could be quantitatively predicted in advance.


Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA

BTW -
the logo for the "Society for Scientific Exploration"
[Only registered users see links. ]
bears an uncanny resemblance to the metal pellet used in the 1978
assassination of Bulgarian dissident Georgi Markov
[Only registered users see links. ]
I don't know about the Qi Gong of that "coincidence", but it *can't* be good
Feng Shui ;-)


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  #8  
Old 11-11-2003, 08:11 PM
Mark Fergerson
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Default Qi: Standard Model Extension or Fifth Force?

tadchem wrote:

LOLOLOLOL!!!

Yet another example of how I know Solipsism is BS; I'd
_never_ have thought that up.

Mark L. Fergerson

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  #9  
Old 11-11-2003, 09:13 PM
Mark Fergerson
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Default Qi: Standard Model Extension or Fifth Force?

cinquirer wrote:

It may also be like explaining Phlogiston, which was
poorly understood until it was shown to be nonexistent. That
didn't happen until effects attributed to it were properly
identified as being due to other specifiable causes. You say
you've observed effects which you attribute to Qi; how do
you _know_ they're not attributable to other, more mundane,
causes? Until you answer that, you'll elicit little positive
interest. If you say that you don't know how, you'll get
grief as being lazy, since double-blind technique is not
complex, just tedious. Until you positively eliminate known
physics in explaining your observations, why should we (or
you, for that matter) not believe you're merely fooling
yourself?

<large snip; apocryphal until the above is done>


Then reproducibly determine its properties, and
rigorously separate them from known physics. Make hypotheses
based on what properties you see (derive sets of rules) that
explain those properties _and_ predict other evidence you
haven't looked for yet (frinst time of propagation, untested
subjects/materials etc.), then _test_ those new predictions,
and repeat until you eliminate all hypotheses but one.
That's how theories come to be.

BTW I insist that you show rigorously how Qi is outside
the Standard Model because you insist that "living matter"
(which you haven't defined) shows Qi effects in a way the SM
doesn't account for. So, show me the border.

(Oh, and don't go directly to exotic supersymmetry stuff
when I say "Standard Model"; first eliminate mundane
mechanics, electromagnetism, thermodynamics, and chemistry.)

If you think the border will be fuzzy (that Qi can affect
"dead" matter too), then you need to predict how fuzzy it
is, and exactly where the overlap is, which will integrate
your eventual theory of Qi and the SM.

If you do find some unaccounted-for facts, at some point
you'll need to construct a mathematical framework for your
(proven) rules, and if some correlation is seen between that
and the math underlying the SM, there's hope of
incorporating both into a larger whole. But don't put your
faith in math exclusively; the "beauty" of a mathematical
structure is no clear indicator of its relationship to reality.

Mark L. Fergerson

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  #10  
Old 11-11-2003, 09:52 PM
Bill Hobba
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Default Standard Model Extension or Fifth Force?

cinquirer wrote:

World renowned Tai Ch and Qi expert Earle Montague (who is the teacher of my
Tai Chi teacher) believes there is noting at all mysterious about Qi - it is
fully explainable in terms of standard ideas - nothing new is required. In
fact he has yet to find any Qi effects that are not simply explained. Also
after undergoing 5 years of accounted by a highly trained and very
experienced Chinese acupuncturist, and having discussed Qi at length with
her, the idea of Qi is simply 'breath' which is just a simple model for
complex things going on in the body. It is now well known, for example,
(and the person who discovered this received a Nobel Prize), that
acupuncture works by blocking and opening gates in the body.

Thanks
Bill


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