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Eotvos Funding

Eotvos Funding - Chemistry Forum

Eotvos Funding - Chemistry Forum. Discuss chemical reactions, chemistry.

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Old 07-30-2003, 11:07 AM
Darren Rhodes
Posts: n/a
Default Eotvos Funding

Would it be possible to fund an Eotvos Experiment using the mechanism
outlined in this page and the references therein
[Only registered users see links. ] Perhaps with the mechanics of the
money raising being handled by this lot [Only registered users see links. ]
(they've handled internet flotations as well as lotteries etc ...) who would
most probably be interested in the publicity?


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Old 07-30-2003, 04:48 PM
Bill Vajk
Posts: n/a
Default Eotvos Funding

Darren Rhodes wrote:

I assume you're talking about an Eötvös experiment
using chiral crystal matter of the sort proposed
(in general terms) by Schwartz?

Perhaps the first step should be to find someone with
the academic credentials to run such an experiment
beginning with the writing (or at least signing) a
proposal and a formal description. The "someone" is
restricted to a very small list for this experiment
unless you're suggesting another balance be built
and qualified as part of the project. The donation
of a lab with equipment on the scale of an Eötvös
balance might interest some underfunded academic at
a university seriously short on money. But then
there's always the risk that the university might
shut its doors before the project, and experiment,
are completed.

The academic would have to do a lot of work to get
everything in place. And what's the timeframe
necessary to qualify an Eötvös balance? Clue,
it isn't mere weeks or single digit months. By
the time it is qualified will the academic honor
the contract? You mean there wasn't a written
contract because the university was unwilling to
accept the gift if it had strings attached?

It appears to me there's little interest by the small
set of academics who presently control the handful
of existing qualified balances.

Eötvös experiments fall in the physics realm, leading
to speculation why you posed the question in sci.chem
with no crosspost to any physics newsgroup. Please note
that the reasoning above is the sort of organizing
activity that needs to be done in advance while putting
together a PERT chart for a program of this sort.

Addressing that, the second step (right after proposal
and description) should be what Schwartz claims is a
very simple thing, the growing and machining of perfect
chiral crystals. I don't think it such a trivial
milestone. If I were in charge of funding the project,
I'd insist on acceptance of the specimens as perfect
and chiral by an impartial panel of academics before
big money for the balance and infrastructure is

Finding a funding source isn't the biggest challange. What's
above is tough and despite Schwartz' being held in awe as a
genius by some none of the above has been achieved. Edison's
single greatest skill was keeping a lab and employees organized.
Genius comes in many forms, but manages to fail in most of them.
Is failed genius still genius? What's your meter?

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Old 08-01-2003, 03:16 PM
Mark Tarka
Posts: n/a
Default Eotvos Funding

NB, I may not be close to a terminal in the coming
days to respond. Mark.

Bill Vajk <[Only registered users see links. ]> wrote in message news:<[Only registered users see links. ]>...

Funny. Very funny. Know of any others?

Adelberger (let's hold our breath and wait to
see how many more papers come out of U.W. with
his name in the list of likely suspects). Know
of any others? Building a better balance isn't
an option, unless someone agrees it's a necessity.
Universities (at least in the West) have already
closed their doors to this type of research?

Aha..."contract". Love of pure science is
now insufficient. And just what is a "qualified"
Eotvos (ooomlauts to be added at a later date,
depending upon funding :-) balance, one that yields
the "correct" answer?

Why do you presume that they'd hang out
and post in the same places as you (sci.*)?

Chirality has a greater impact on chemistry? And,
the concept never dawned on the physicists?

Let's leave it simply as "[you] don't think".

100 centimeters. What's yours?

Mark (Dee and Dum entered the elevator....)
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Old 08-01-2003, 04:40 PM
Posts: n/a
Default Eotvos Funding

You will not find a lab with an "Eötvös balance",
can anyone guess why that is?
Would not at least a beginning physics course help before
one trys to do research.
[Only registered users see links. ]
[Only registered users see links. ]
[Only registered users see links. ]
[Only registered users see links. ]
[Only registered users see links. ]
[Only registered users see links. ]
[Only registered users see links. ]
[Only registered users see links. ]


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Old 08-01-2003, 05:38 PM
Bill Vajk
Posts: n/a
Default Eotvos Funding

maison.mousse wrote:

[Only registered users see links. ]

It appears your education is significantly lacking in this
area so perhaps I had better explain that the URL above
links to a paper about an Eötvös balance and the lab built
especially to house it at the University of Washington.

There are several other such installations as well.

Your posting shows it originates in France. Is this (the
above) what French science has come to? The unwarranted
(and mistaken) arrogance is certainly familiar enough.

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Old 08-01-2003, 06:46 PM
Posts: n/a
Default Eotvos Funding

Bill Vajk a écrit dans le message <[Only registered users see links. ]>...
There is described at U.W a torsion balance someone dubed the Eot-rot-

"Explanation of the name Eöt-Wash
Our group's name is a pun on the name of a famous gravitational physicist"
There is no gravity meter called an Eotvos. There is the Eotvos
effect named in his honor of which I'm sure you are unaware.

Never taken a physics course have you?
I did my graduate work in geophysics (gravity, magnetic &seismic) at the
University of Tulsa!!! (Under graduate at Eastern Washington U.) Before
changing to chemistry I worked for some 15
years as a senior geophysicist for, among others, Phillips Petroleum and
Buttes Resources


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Old 08-01-2003, 07:12 PM
Bill Vajk
Posts: n/a
Default Eotvos Funding

maison.mousse wrote:

Then by all means look up my family name in the field of
geophysics where you'll find my father mentioned more than
a few times. Refusing to use the nomenclature "Eötvös balance"
is no more than a childish trollish exercise. You're unworthy
even of contempt. The instruments and labs exist.

FYI, my father worked for the Eötvös Torsion Balance company
in Budapest and was sent to the field to Houston with an "Eötvös
Torsion Balance" to do gravity survey interpretation coming in
from the survey crew. His work there ended because of the
great depression. He completed his professional geophysics
career as chief geophysical advisor at Exxon (then ESSO) and
followed that up with 15 more years in academia. I recently
donated his "gravity integrator" to the Olajipari Muzeum
in Hungary.

I have both the educational and a historical background
supporting my competence to discuss these subject areas.

You belong in France. Please stay there. I'll not bother
with your stupid little games further.

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Old 08-05-2003, 05:31 PM
Mark Tarka
Posts: n/a
Default Eotvos balance /Bill Vajk (WAS: Re: Eotvos Funding)

Bill Vajk <[Only registered users see links. ]> wrote in message news:<[Only registered users see links. ]>...

Bill...if you would...the Eotvos balance,
integrator, whatever it might be called.
Could you describe it in terms we, the
ininitiated could understand...what is the
"balance"...a long arm with masses suspended
in the traditional manner of a "two pan balance"
only with a greater distance between the
"pans"/masses? Meters apart?

What I'm saying/asking, is, was the idea to measure
differences in gravitational attraction for
"identical" masses, in order to detect differences
in subsurface structure (like, oil resevoirs or

Was the idea to measure different gravitational
attractions for identical masses DUE TO DIFFERENT

Mark (Sweetie = brilliant physicist, for the
purposes of this experiment/post :-)
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Old 08-05-2003, 06:46 PM
Posts: n/a
Default Eotvos balance /Bill Vajk (WAS: Re: Eotvos Funding)

Mark Tarka a écrit dans le message
<[Only registered users see links. ]>. ..
news:<[Only registered users see links. ]>...
SNIPED idiotic comments.

FYI there never was an "Eötvös Torsion Balance Co."
Eötvös's experiments were on " the Equivalence Principle" that is the
proportionality of inertial and gravitational masses and among other
things to determine
if radioactivity effected gravitation and if gravity could be shielded. He
is most noted for his work on making gravity measurements in moving frames
of reference.
The formula he developed to compensate for the vertical component of the
Coriolis effect is named in his honor.
Eötvös was not the first to developed the torsion balance ,Mitchell,
Cavendish, and Coulomb were before him.
He made his first gravity measurements with a Cavendish Torsion Balance
in 1890. He later modified and improved this instrument. This modified
instrument is the one he is credited with designing and he never patented
his version which was the most accurate for its time but primitive by todays
The standard torsion fiber gravity instrument used during the 1930's was the
The Atlas , World Wide and Sharpe were also widely used.
Only 300 of the Eötvös designed instruments were built there is no
reference to these being used by Esso or any other oil company except for
the Hungarian-
American Oil Company in tests in Hungary.


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Old 08-05-2003, 07:49 PM
Bill Vajk
Posts: n/a
Default Eotvos balance /Bill Vajk (WAS: Re: Eotvos Funding)

Mark Tarka wrote:

What does "ininitiated" mean anyway? EMWTK.

The "gravity integrator" I mentioned in the post to
sci.chem is a mechanical device which was used as
an analog calculator. It had the advantage of being
a significant shortcut against manual repetitive
calculations using a slide rule. There are some
photos of it undeveloped in my camera. If interest
persists I'll put pictures up on a web page later
(once the film is developed.) Give the reduced use
I make of of film cameras these days, it will
probably be a while.

Start with English Geologist John Mitchell ca 1750 and
Coulomb ca 1777 for the early versions of a torsion
balance. The principle was to detect a small force
by using a mechanism of an attractor inducing torque
on a wire or thread supporting a balanced armature.

google "torsion balance" +coulomb 648 hits

In an Eötvös torsion balance the weight balanced masses
at the two ends of an armature are set at different
elevations yielding a differential local gravitational
attraction due to inverse r^2 participating in the
scheme. When I was first introduced to the concepts
I was impressed at the usefulness of the instrument
despite what appears to be a difference in elevation
that I took to be small.

For more detailed information about the modern high end
instrument that Al wishes he could get his hands in for
his experiment see [Only registered users see links. ]

There is sufficient variation in local gravity to be able
to map interesting subterranean structures. Among the most
significant of these is a salt dome which is often
generally mushroom shaped and traps oil underneath the
cap. To drill into the stalk is futile where drilling
through the cap often yields oil. Other subterranean
variations of interest to the petroleum industry exist
as well.

N.B. The textbook picture versions of oil reservoirs shown
in traditional school textbooks are usually plain wrong.
In context, see especially syncline and anticline.

As far as field use in the petroleum industry's gravity
surveys was concerned, the balance was subject to thermal
problems and had a long settling period. Considering that
each station mapped required three precise orientations
of the instrument, they didn't measure very many stations
in an 8 hour day. No, I don't know how many that was. They
also had to provide a surveyors' precision map locating
each station.

Hope that helps. Make google your friend now that you've
been introduced to these concepts. Googling Adelberger
will bring you a plethora of useful information about
recent and current doings.

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