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element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash

element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash - Botany Forum

element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash - Botany Forum


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  #11  
Old 03-07-2006, 04:06 PM
hanson
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Default element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash

[Archmed] aka "a_plutonium" <[Only registered users see links. ]> wrote
in message news:[Only registered users see links. ]...
[Archmed]
[hanson]
Not too many plants do store Hg till they wilt. HgMe2 is
volatile. The main acquisition of Hg into coal comes during
the wet bog phase via sequestering/chelating of Hg by humic
acids from mineral leeching over LONG periods of time.
These organic Hg compounds then become/evolve into
molecules of increasingly more hydrophobic nature as the
coalfaction process continues... Hence they/Hg ends up
highly enriched in anthracite.
[Archmed]
[hanson]
It's not so much the chemicals as it's the structure of the bark
that gives the fire resistance. .. And as far as the chemicals,
apparently everybody except you knows that, it is these
Group V elememts here that do the main assistance in breaking
ignition sequence chain events on the molecular level....



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  #12  
Old 03-07-2006, 08:23 PM
a_plutonium@hotmail.com
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Default element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash

Hanson wrote:
[hanson]
Not too many plants do store Hg till they wilt. HgMe2 is
volatile. The main acquisition of Hg into coal comes during
the wet bog phase via sequestering/chelating of Hg by humic
acids from mineral leeching over LONG periods of time.
These organic Hg compounds then become/evolve into
molecules of increasingly more hydrophobic nature as the
coalfaction process continues... Hence they/Hg ends up
highly enriched in anthracite.

[Archmed]

[hanson]
It's not so much the chemicals as it's the structure of the bark
that gives the fire resistance. .. And as far as the chemicals,
apparently everybody except you knows that, it is these
Group V elememts here that do the main assistance in breaking
ignition sequence chain events on the molecular level....

A.P. writes:
Thanks for the info and will keep in my scrap file.

Say, you would not happen to live in the Midwest, if my memory is
correct you are from Indiana. The reason I ask is that I need Rock Elm
seed, Ulmus racemosa (thomasii). Can you get some Rock Elm seed and
mail it to me. I will be eternally grateful.

Archimedes Plutonium
[Only registered users see links. ]
whole entire Universe is just one big atom
where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

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  #13  
Old 03-07-2006, 09:14 PM
hanson
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Default element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash

<[Only registered users see links. ]> wrote in message
news:1141763037.181187.236000@i39g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
[A.P. writes]
[hanson]
Sorry, Archie, I am nowhere near from there. It's been 30 years
since I have seen a Rock Elm. -- Here, either in Raratonga or in
Kauai-Princeville there are only Palm trees and other tropical jungle
brush. But I am sure that you can get your Rock Elm seed from
[Only registered users see links. ] or [Only registered users see links. ]
or even via the USDA, or perhaps some kind poster, who lives
where your object of desire grows, will oblige. BTW, should RE
not be a native species in your knack of the woods, consult with the
enviro agencies first. There may be laws against introducing non
native plants.
Good Luck,
hanson


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  #14  
Old 03-11-2006, 02:18 AM
donald haarmann
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Default element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash

"Dan" <[Only registered users see links. ]

|
| We know this because ash used to be the main source of nitrates for the
| production of gunpowder way back when (and may still be, but I doubt
| it). Ash is not a known mixture, it just means what's left after
| burning.


-----------
Sorry. Wood ash was never the source of nitrate, it was, however, the source of
potash (potassium carbonate) mixed with the cave (for instance) nitrate (calcium),
to convert it into usable potassium nitrate, calcium nitrate being hygroscopic.



--
donald j haarmann
-----------------------------
As if ordained by Fate, Nitre, that admirable salt,
hath made as much noise in Philosophy as in
War, all the world being filled with its thunder.
John Mayow
Ttractalus Quinque Medico-Physici, 1674


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  #15  
Old 03-11-2006, 02:27 AM
donald haarmann
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Default element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash

"Farooq W" <[Only registered users see links. ]

|
| My fault... Its ppm for entries below SO3. More surprising the uptake
| of heavy metals especially Th and U by the plants...Barium is
| abnormally high or the soil on which that tree grew was rich in barium
| ores!
|

-------------
The up take of uranium by plants is well know. See for example :-

Botanical Prospecting for Uranium on La Ventana Mesa, Sandoval County
New Mexico. US Geological Survey Bulletin 1009-M. 1956.

Some plants uptake serious amounts of selenium.

Description of Indicator Plants and Methods of Botanical Prospecting for
Uranium Deposits on the Colorado Plateau. US Geological Survey Bulletin
1030-M. 1957.



--
donald j haarmann
-----------------------
Science is a collection
of successful recipes.
Paul Valéry
French poet-essayist
(1871-1945)


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  #16  
Old 03-11-2006, 10:39 PM
hanson
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Default Metals/Inorganics in Plants

Re: element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash

"Bob" <[Only registered users see links. ].com> wrote in message
news:[Only registered users see links. ]...
[Bob]
[hanson]
=1= I posted this into sci.geo.geology in hope to get some views
from the geos' camp about the popularity & effectiveness of BP.
=2= As what/which compound does Si get into solution from the
calcogen silicates, considering that SiO4-- is stable only at
pH >11 in aq?
=3= in what soluble or sol-gel form is Silicon taken up
and transported in/to the plant (at a pH range ~< 7)
=4= As what/which compound is Si stored in the plant?
=5= and what function does the Si have in the plants?




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  #17  
Old 03-12-2006, 09:33 PM
Jo Schaper
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Posts: n/a
Default Metals/Inorganics in Plants

hanson wrote:



I don't know the answer to your question, but I would look at
Equisetum-- aka scouring rushes. They have extremely high Si uptake. As
a primitive plant whose chlorosphyll is incorporated in the stems, the
Si, is used as a supporting structure.

Also, the Na, K, Ca group are also metals utilized by plants.
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  #18  
Old 03-12-2006, 10:15 PM
Edward Hennessey
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Default Metals/Inorganics in Plants


"Jo Schaper" <joschapern4ospam@2socketdot.no5net> wrote in
message news:[Only registered users see links. ]...
much ash
example :-
Sandoval
1956.
probably
percent Ni in
views
of BP.
the
at

If someone is familiar with the Russian professional literature,
this is one
of its admirable specialties.

Regards,

Edward Hennessey


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  #19  
Old 03-13-2006, 12:09 AM
donald haarmann
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default element or compound in tree bark that it burns with too much ash

"Michael Hearne" <[Only registered users see links. ]

| donald haarmann wrote:
| > "Dan" <[Only registered users see links. ]
| >
| > |
| > | We know this because ash used to be the main source of nitrates for the
| > | production of gunpowder way back when (and may still be, but I doubt
| > | it). Ash is not a known mixture, it just means what's left after
| > | burning.
| >
| >
| > -----------
| > Sorry. Wood ash was never the source of nitrate, it was, however, the source of
| > potash (potassium carbonate) mixed with the cave (for instance) nitrate (calcium),
| > to convert it into usable potassium nitrate, calcium nitrate being hygroscopic.
| >
| >
| >
|
| Cave nitrate?
|
| Does that mean that bat guano is a usable source for the nitrate needed
| to make black powder? Or are you referring to stalactites/stalagmites?
| (The mites go up and the tights come down).
|
| Michael


---------
No. Bat caves are too dry.

For more than you ever wanted to know 'bout "vertebrate excretion"; see -

George Evelyn Hutchinson's
Survey of Contemporary Knowledge of Biogeochemistry
3. The Biogeochemistry of Vertebrate Excretion
Bulletin of the American Museum of Natural History
Volume 96 New York : 1950
554 pages!


------------
Native deposits of saltpeter (saltpetre – British) are well known as the white
efflorescence on walls (saltpetre rot) which can be either — potassium nitrate;
sodium nitrate (Chile saltpeter); or calcium nitrate (Norwegian saltpeter). And soil
saltpeter. Needham states that the solonchak soils in Honan province yielded
more than 30,000 lbs. of saltpetre per acre p.a. (ca 1961). Other well known
deposits are [were] in the Tirhût district, Bengal, India. (From which comes
“Bengal Lance”) Egypt, Persia, Hungry (near Debreczin), Apulia, Kentucky,
Indiana (Wyandotte cave from which salt peter for the War of 1812 was obtained,
the cave continued in operation until 1817), &c., “none of which [are] of more
than local importance now” [1913].

The largest deposits are those found in the Chilean cliché deposits. The Chilean
nitrate deposits are of a strange nature. Following several unexplained
explosions in the gunpowder works at Stragare and Obilicévo (ca 1894).
Chemical analysis of the nitrate found that it contained as much as 2.5%
perchlorate!

Suffering from more information than time. I will supply the following bibliography
for those suffering from a lack of details:-

Burton Faust, Saltpetre Mining in Mammoth Cave, KY, The Filson Club, 1967.

Angelo I George, The Saltpeter Empires of Great Saltpetre Cave and Mammoth
Cave. H.M.I. Press 2001.

US Geological Survey Bulletins:-

523 Hoyt S Gale, [US] Nitrate Deposits.
620B Nitrate Deposits in Southern Idaho and Eastern Oretgon. 1915
724 LF Noble & et al, Nitrate Deposits in the Amargosa Region Southeastern
California. 1922
820 LF Noble, Nitrate Deposits in the Southeastern California: With notes on
Deposits in Southeastern Arizona and Southwestern New Mexico. 1931.
838 GR Mansfield & L Boardman, Nitrate Deposits of the United States. 1932.

AW Allen, The Recovery of Nitrate from Chilean Caliche. Charles Griffin & Co.
London 1921.

Joseph Needham, Science and Civilisation in China. Part 7: Military Technology;
The Gunpowder Epic. Cambridge University Press 1986.

C Haeussermann, The Occurrence of Perchlorate in Saltpetre. Cemiker Zeitung
1894 (18):1206-1207.

V Panastovic, Elimination of Potassium Perchlorate from Saltpetre. Chemiker
Zeitung 1894 (18):1567.

George E Ericksen, The Chilean Nitrate Deposits. American Scientist July-
August 1983 366-374.

Saltpetre, Nitrate of Potassa. In: R Wagner, A Handbook of Chemical
Technology. D Appleton & Co. 1872 (Reprinted by Lindsay Publications)

Potassium nitrate (Saltpetre, nitre). In: Sir Edward Thorpe, A Dictionary of
Applied Chemistry Volume 4 pg. 363-367. Longman’s Green, London. 1913.

Potash, Nitrate of. In: R Hunt, Ure's Dictionary of Arts, Manufactures, and Mines.
Volume 3, pg 594-597. Longman's Green, London. 1878.

VIIth International Congress of Applied Chemistry by it Explosive Section —
Under the Auspices of. The Rise and Progress of the British Explosives Industry.
London : Whittaker and Co. 1909.


-------------------
digesteth, fermenteth, and ripeneth

The old method of obtaining saltpetre was to collect vegetable and animal refuse
containing nitrogen, the sweepings of slaughter- houses, weeds, etc., into heaps
and to mix this with limestone, old mortar, earth and ashes. These heaps were
sheltered from the rain, and kept moist from time to time with runnings from
stables and other urine.

As late as in the reign of James I (1624), we find in an indenture between the
King and Thomas Warricke, Peter Sparke, Michael Townshend and John Fells,
the statement that " for making of the saltpetre which hath been formerly and
now is made it has been found a matter of mere necessity to dig houses, cellars,
vaults, stables, dovehouses and such like places, wherewith divers of his
Majesty's subjects have found themselves grieved. " We are also informed that
the conveyance of the liquors, vessels, tubs, ashes, etc, from place to place in
carts had been a frequent source of nuisance and litigation.

The above persons purporting to have invented a new process for making
saltpetre undertake to make it " as good and perfect as any hath formerly been,
and shall be vented at cheaper and easier rates than formerly his Majesty or his
loving subjects have paid for-the same, which said saltpetre as His Majesty is
informed is to be or may be made of an artificial mixture or composition of chalk,
all sorts of limestone and lime, marl, divers minerals, and other nitrous mines
and other kind of ordinary earth, street dirt, or rubbish, stable dung, emptying of
vaults, the excrements of all living creatures, their bodies putrified, all vegetables
putrified or rotted, or the ashes, of them, and these or any of these mixed
together in proportion as they may be most conveniently had, and shall be found
most useful in such places where the said works shall be thought fit to be
erected, which said artificial mixture or composition of any or all the foresaid
ingredients is often times moistened with urine of men and beasts, petre, or
nitrous wells, and springs, and all other concrete juices and blood of all sorts as
can be gotten, and shall be fit and convenient for it, and divers times turned and
removed, by which means the mixture in time digesteth, fermenteth, and
ripeneth, from whence there is engendered the seed or mine of saltpetre which
afterwards is to be extracted with common water, urine, the water of petre or
nitrous wells, and springs, and then either breathed away in the sun or air, or
stoved with gentle heat or boiled with a stronger fire with his proper additament
of ashes, lime, and such like for separating the common salt and other mixtures
naturally growing in the liquor and afterwards refined into perfect saltpetre. "

The King then granted the patentees licence to exercise their invention for a term
of twenty-one years and to set up houses for preparing the artificial earth, etc.

On 26th December of the same year " was issued a proclamation, commanding
that no dovehouses or cellars be paved, except that part of the cellars where the
wine and beer is laid, in order that the growth of saltpetre might not be
obstructed." (Patent Roll, 22 James I, part 4, No. 9 dorso.)

---------------
1630, 14th February. Sir Francis Seymour to Secretary Coke. The saltpetre men
care not in whose houses they dig, threatening men that by their commission
they may dig in any man's house, in any room, and at any time, which will prove
a great grievance to the country. In the town where the writer lives they have
digged up some malting rooms, and threaten to dig more. They dig up the
entries and halls of divers men. If any oppose them they break up men's houses
and dig by force. They make men carry their saltpetre at a groat a mile, and take
their carriages in sowing time and harvest, with many other oppressions. Hopes
that these men may not be allowed to strain their commission. The saltpetre
man's name for Wilts is Hellyer. (S. P. Dom. Charles 1, vol. clxi, No. i.)

1630, 20th February. Petition of Hugh Grove, Deputy for making saltpetre to the
Lords of the Admiralty. Complains of Thomas Stallam and others of Thetford for
refusing to carry saltpetre liquors. Prays that they may be sent for by warrant. (S.
P. Dom. Charles 1, vol. clxi,,No. 35)

1630, 6th March. Gabriel Dowse and others to the Lords of the Admiralty. The
complaints of wrongs committed by Stevens the saltpetre man are so great that
they had not been able to reduce them into method. Pray a respite of their
certificate for a fortnight or three weeks. (S. P. Dom. Charles 1, vol. clxii, No. 40'

1630, 23rd March. Thos. Bond to Nicholas. Understands Lords of the Admiralty
have referred the collection of the proofs against the saltpetre men to two
knights. . . . saltpetre men make their vaunts that they will get their Iiberty and
carry themselves in the country as formerly. . . . If the saltpetre men go down
without redress of wrongs it will despair into the heart of the country.... (S. P.
Dom. Charles vol. clxiii, No. 40)

1630 30th April. Sir William Russell, Sir John Wolsterholme, and Sir Kenelm
Digby to the Lords of the Admiralty. Report on consideration of the complaints
and examinations sent in against Mr. Hilliard and Mr. Stephens, saltpetre men
and their servants. According to the proofs there is no part of their commission
which they have not extremely abused. As in digging in all places without
distinction, as in parlours, bedchambers, threshing and malting floors yea, God's
own house they have not forborne; so they respect not times, digging in the
breeding time in dovehouses, and working sometimes a month together,
whereby the flights of doves are destroyed; and without respect to harvest time
in barns and in malting houses, when green malt is upon the floor; and
bedchambers, placing their tubs by the bedside of the old and sick, even of
women in childbed, and persons on their death-beds. They have undermined
walls, and seldom fill up the places they have digged. In taking up, cart they
observe no seasons, and charge more carts than are needful, discharging some
again for bribes, and overload the carts they employ. They do not pay the prices
for carriage required by the commission. They take up coals not only where they
a sold but from those that have fetched them 20 or 30 miles by land for their own
winter's provision. They recommend that the offenders should be punished, and
that the commission be taken in, and a new one made out, with restrictions
designed to put an end to the abuses complained of (S. P. Dom. Charles 11 vol.
clxv, No. 38.)

1630, 26th June. Petition of Nicholas Stephens, Deputy saltpetre men to the
Lords of the Admiralty. The Lords having directed Attorney General to proceed
against him in the especially in the charge of digging in the Norton, he begs them
to consider the declaration annexed, to withdraw the order for proceeding in the
Star Chamber.

Annexing the declaration above alluded to. At a time great want of saltpetre he
removed only some waste and unnecessary part of the soil of the church of
Chipping Norton, as with the concurrence of the parishioners and ministers he
had done in the churches of Coventry, Warwick, and Oxford. Other digging was
done in his absence by his servant, whom he cast into Oxford gaol, and made
satisfaction to the parishioners. (S. Dom. Charles I, vol. clx, No. 46.)

1630, July. Petition of Thomas Hilliard, one of the saltpetre men, on behalf of
himself and his servants to the Lords of the Admiralty. By commission dated April
28, 5 Charles I, they were authorized to work for petre in the houses of any of
His Majesty's subjects, and within privileged places. About January last,
petitioner's workmen endeavoured to dig in the pigeon house of Thomas Bond,
who disobeyed the commission, and complained against petitioner, and in
February last procured him and his workmen to be sent for by warrant. They
have ever since remained prisoners. Pray to be dismissed. (S. P. Dom. Charles
I, vol. clxxi, No. 79.)

1631, 16th March. Thomas Thornhill to the Lords of the Admiralty. He complains
of endeavours made to prevent the search for saltpetre, by laying soap ashes on
the earth, paving cellars with stone, or filling them with gravel. (S. P. Dom
Charles I, vol. clxxxvi, No. 102.)

1631, April. Requests of Stephen Barrett, John Vincent, Thomas Hilliard, and five
others, the Deputies of the Lords of the Admiralty for making saltpetre, to the
same Lords. It being the pleasure of the Lords to renew or alter the Commission
under which the Deputies act, they set forth certain provisions which they desire
to have inserted in the new Commission for their defence. Among other things, if
forbidden to dig in bedrooms, they desire not to be debarred from digging in
other rooms in dwelling houses; also that owners of dove houses and stables
should be prohibited from adopting measures which, prevent the growth of
saltpetre; that owners of carriages may still be compellable to carry the saltpetre
at 4d. a mile; that the Deputies may take- wood ashes wherever found at a
certain reasonable price; with other provisions framed in the same spirit. (S. P.
Dom. Charles 1, vol. clxxxix, No. 89.)

1631, 14th June. Matthew Goad, Deputy Clerk of the Star Chamber, to the
judges of the same Court. Certificate that in the cause of John Morley and others
against Thos. Hilliard and others, it is confessed in the answers of the
defendants that some of them dug for saltpetre under the beds of persons who
were sick therein, that compositions were taken for discharge of carts
commanded to carry saltpetre, that Hilliard hired horses to draw his wife's coach
up and down the country at the King's price, and caused the country to carry
coals for the work of saltpetre, and sold the same again to his own advantage.
(S. P. Dom. Charles I, vol. cxciii, No. 83.)

1634, 14th March. A proclamation for the preservation of the mines of saltpetre.
No dovehouse or dovecot or cellar to be paved, and no stables pitched paved or
gravelled, where horse feet stand, but planked only. (Rymer's " Foedera," xix, p.
601.)

18th March. The Lords of the Admiralty to the Governor and Company of
Soapboilers. Give orders that the saltpetre men are to have the pre-emption of
wood ashes, on the ground that saltpetre is a commodity of such necessary use
for the King and Public that it ought to be preferred before the making of soap.
(S. P. Dom. Charles I, vol. cclxiii, No. i.)

1634, 15th November. Richard Bagnall, slatpeter man to Nicholas. Sends
enclosed list of names of those who have lately carried forth their earth in their
pigeon houses. If some course be not taken others will do the same, and it will
be impossible for the saltpetre men to supply their great proportions, besides
destroying the mine. (S. P. Dom. Charles I, Vol. cclxxvii, No. 52.)

Annexed list (52. i) above mentioned. It contains names of persons in cos.
Oxford and Warwick.

1634, 2nd December. Petition of John Giffard, saltpetre man to the Lords of the
Admiralty. His hindrances by refusal of people in Gloucester to carry coal from
the adjacent pits to his boiling-house in Thornburg; also because they carry off
the earth from their pigeon-houses to manure their lands. (S. P. Dom. Charles I,
Vol. cclxxviii, No. 4-)

1634, 26th November. The Lords of the Admiralty to Montjoy Earl of Newport.
His Majesty is resolved to take into his hands and disposition all the gunpowder
made of the saltpetre of the kingdom, for better furnishing his occasions and
those of his subjects. (S. P. Dom. Charles I, vol. cclxxvii, No. 96.)

1634, 2nd December. Petition of John Giffard, saltpetre man to the Lords of the
Admiralty. His hindrances by refusal of people in Gloucester to carry coal from
the adjacent pits to his boilinghouse in Thornburg; also because they carry off
the earth from their pigeon-houses to manure their lands. (S. P. Dom. Charles I,
vol. cclxxviii, No- 4.)

1635, 18th April. Admiralty order to enquire concerning complaints of Thomas
Thornhill that divers persons in Somerset, contrary to proclamations, have
carried forth the earth out of their dovehouses, and divers inn-keepers have
paved their stables, by which practices the mine of saltpetre is destroyed. (S. P.
Dom. Charles I, vol. cclxiv, f. 115-)

1637, 3rd June. Articles exhibited to the Commissioners for Saltpetre by
Christopher Wren, Dean of Windsor, and Rector of Knoyle Magna or Epicopi,
Wilts, against Thomas Thornhill, saltpetreman, for damage done by digging for
saltpetre in the pigeon-house of the said rectory. There have been two diggings
in this pigeon-house, one by Helyar, whom Thornhill then served, about eight
years ago, the other by Thornhill in March, 1636-7. On the first occasion, the
pigeon-house, built of massy stone walls 20 ft. high, was so shaken that the
Rector was forced to buttress tip the east side thereof. On the last occasion the
foundation was undermined, and the north wall fell in. The loss to the Rector had
been that of three breeds, whereof the least never yielded fewer than -o or 4o
dozen, and of the whole flight, which forsook the house, and the Rector stands
endangered to the law for dilapidations. Thornhill has refused all recompense,
telling the Dean that the King must bear him out. The Dean desires that Thornhill
may make full recompense according to the King's pleasure signified on behalf
of the Dean, who is registrar of the Garter, at the last chapter of the Order in
Whitehall on 18th April last. Underwritten:

8.1. Order of the Lords that Thornhill answer these articles by that day sennight.
Whitehall, 3rd June, 1637(S. P. Dom. Charles 1, vol. ccclxi, No. 8.)

SO:
The Rise and Progress of the British Explosives Industry
Published under the auspices of the:-
VIIth International Congress of Applied Chemistry
E A Brayley Hodgetts editor
Whittaker and Co. London 1909



donald j haarmann
-------------------------
"And that it was a great pity, so it was,
That villainous saltpetre should be digg'd
Out of the bowels of this harmless earth."
Act 1, Henry IV.


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  #20  
Old 03-13-2006, 12:17 AM
donald haarmann
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Metals/Inorganics in Plants

"Jo Schaper" <joschapern4ospam@2socketdot.no5net|
| I don't know the answer to your question, but I would look at
| Equisetum-- aka scouring rushes. They have extremely high Si uptake. As
| a primitive plant whose chlorosphyll is incorporated in the stems, the
| Si, is used as a supporting structure.
|
| Also, the Na, K, Ca group are also metals utilized by plants.



---------
Panskinu & Zeeuw
Textbook of Wood Technology
McGraw Hill 1980

Note - The heartwood of several tropical trees are immune to the attack of marine bores.One group
contains more than 2% silica, e.g., genera Licania and Parinari and several special of the genus
Eschweilera form S America.

Salt (sodium chloride) was/is obtained from plants by several groups of inland tropical native groups.


--
donald j haarmann
----------------------------
There are more things in heaven and
earth, Horatio.
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
The Melancholy Dane


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